Is it not possible to have "trans rights" and "women's rights" at the same time?

[Artmumcreative]

I suppose I just think debate is too polarised. I think the answer might be to have third spaces (e.g. a separate toilet a bit like a disabled toilet) for trans women, so they're safe and women are safe. I think it would be nice if women supported transpeople and transpeople supported women (e.g at a trans rights demo and a women's rights demo). Not all transwomen are rapists, just as not all men are.

Male on male violence then. I do hope men get round to sorting this out.

I doubt it. Unless you are saying men are all violent nutters? Because if so, that kind of emphasises why no males belong in women’s spaces doesn’t it?

You do wonder, if men are so scared of being beaten up in their own toilets, why there hasn't been national campaigns to encourage men to be more inclusive of their non gender conforming brothers, to reduce men on men violence and to implement and fund third spaces, rather than women's toilets being viewed as a useful resource, without women's agreement.

Exactly. Why is no one telling men to #bekind?

Yes, that would have been the simpler solution rather than saying if a man feels vulnerable in the men’s, he can use the women’s.

That effectively props the door wide open to all sorts like gay men, small men, odd looking men etc using womens spaces for protection.

There is little evidence that men who identify as women are disproportionately at risk from other men in the toilets but it is not women’s problem to sort.

All of the men who identify as women that I’ve met could well look after themselves if threatened. One of them was 6’8”!

Because it isn't an actual reason.

The media would be all over a story publicising how awful it is should a man suffer like this in a men's toilet, everyone would know his name.

Normally a problem happens, and a solution arises from it. In this, the desired solution doesn't have an actual problem beyond 'I wanna'. Which doesn't cut much ice. Hence this being one of the many reasons hurled around, many of them conflicting, in a desperate attempt to try and find justification for the desired end point - which is men having free access to women in a state of undress in women only spaces.

Check out also (recent example in the Darlington case) the wobbly lip about 'gosh are you implying the very very lovely colleague of yours could possibly ever consider harming or harassing women while he uses the women's space' at the same time as claiming he'd be 'unsafe' in the men's space.

Conveniently skipping the wobbly lip that all his very very lovely male colleagues obviously weren't likely to harm or harass him. And skipping that if men are not safe, then he doesn't get to be an exception.

But put down that excuse and several more will be along in a minute. Covering up the frantic 'just shut up and stop cock blocking!' that actually underpins it.

It's reasonable for effeminate or feminised men to be afraid of being humiliated or attacked by other men. Which doesn't mean they should be in women's spaces either.

Transmen are also at risk from men, not just because they may be clocked as women but also because they can be seen by men as feminine men who are vulnerable or fair game.

As many gay men can attest, "not-a-masculine-man" is not a very safe thing to be.

So men, causing problems for other men, in men's spaces?

Only the most grossly misogynistic society would make that an issue for women to solve

He. Or They. A trans woman is a man. He uses disabled toilets. He, or They, but not She.

Quite.

I'm afraid I've heard that poor lovely fragile friend line too many times, and used too often as emotional manipulation intended to leverage women's female socialisation into saying 'oh bless, of course he can come in with us and we will mummy him'.

And behind him, Isla Bryson and Karen White march in, slamming the door wide and undoing their flies. I was not this cynical at one point, but I've now spoken to and seen the actions of too many of these men.

He needs to be putting his voice behind the addition of third spaces.

I agree entirely that effeminate men have been very badly treated by other men throughout the ages.

But this is again an argument very conveniently exploited to destroying women's right to single sex provision.

In the Darlington case for example, there was no question that the man now 'unsafe' in the men's facilities had ever been badly treated by his male colleagues. Why should it be wholly unthinkable that now he's presenting (at times and a bit) in feminine gear he should be expected to brave these known, familiar, safe men and risk them abruptly beginning to illtreat him, but absolutely fine to say to women don't be silly, how can you think this lovely male colleague might harass or hurt you?

When women voice fears about men illtreating, harassing or harming them they are told sternly NAMALT. Not to 'weaponise their trauma'. That it's ridiculous to go through life afraid and to toughen up. To get therapy until they get over this stupid fear of men. This was actually raised with one of the Darlington nurses, that her barrier of trauma preventing her indulging this man in his wishes to undress with her should be her responsibility to repair.

Are men afraid of men told the same? Shouldn't they also just remind themselves NAMALT and crack on?

It really has nothing to do with fear or vulnerability.

@Artmumcreative do you have anything to add to your idea of third spaces and how that would work?

Same as disabled loos/changing rooms/prisons.

And do you have a response to what gas been pointed out numerous times on this thread ie that women who said third spaces were the answer were told by TRA that they were nazis and bigots? that TW have repeatedly said they don't want to use third spaces, they want to use women's spaces?

Can you provide some evidence?

We're always hearing that but I can't remember any media reports about random attacks on a stranger in men's toilets, changing rooms etc.

I think it's one of these nonsense claims that enter folklore but don't stand up to scrutiny.

No. Why on earth should I support men trying to be in women’s spaces? Mental health support is what’s needed. Imo people cannot change sex.

Case in point.

Additional space created and needs catered for. (Men's division renamed 'open').

Massive hissy fit over it.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5440833-cambridge-bans-trans-rowers-from-womens-boat-race?reply=148389484

They don't want their own stuff, they want women's stuff. They don't like permitting anything to exist that makes clear they are not biological women . The actual impact on biological women is of zero interest.

@OpheliaWitchoftheWoods I do agree with you. Even when the fear is real it has been exaggerated, weaponised and politicised. Men aren't saying "safe with us". There's something about men in general not wanting to confrront their own homophobia and their own fears. So much easier to decide effeminate men are "really" women and belong over there with the women.

So we've had a OP asking why "can't we all be kind and support the poor trans women" followed by post after post explaining why women are absolutely fine with third spaces and we just want men to stay out of ours. Post after post explaining that third spaces have been offered but men do no want to use them as it is the being with the women that confirms their delusion. When women say no to this we are told we are transphobes, bigots etc.

A standard reply from the OP saying in essence " I don't know". You could almost predict it.

I've no idea if @Artmumcreative is genuine or not. It almost doesn't matter. But I think this thread proves yet again that it's impossible to have a coherent reasonable debate about this issue with people who are still stuck at "middle ground and being kind".

There is no evidence. Largely because up until now TIM were using the women's toilets.
I do accept that men who present in stereotypically female ways are at risk from a cohort of other men.
I also accept that if a TIM is unfortunate enough to find himself in an enclosed space with men from this cohort, he may be at risk.
What I don't accept is that the answer to this is for him to keep himself safe in the women's toilet, and in doing so make that space less safe for women by opening it to men. Some of whom will belong to the cohort both we and TIM fear.

The only question that needs to be answered around whether a group of male people who fear for their safety in male toilets is, ‘what other group of male people over about 8 years old who fear abuse and attack in male toilets should also be allowed into female toilets?’

If the answer is no other group, then that is the answer. If no other male group of people get allowed to utilise female single sex provisions as security and comfort from male single sex provisions- that particular group of male people should never have been allowed either.

Female people are not security shields or therapeutic services for a group of male people to utilise.

If there is an issue with safety of male people in male toilets, a national campaign needs to be started right now with safety measures implemented. And bluntly, it is also up to those male people who fear male spaces to lead the fucking campaign to improve them.

Unless of course, that safety issue is not really the issue at all but a well worn platitude.

I am grateful that he doesn't use the ladies. But there is precisely zero evidence that transwomen are beaten up in the mens. Zero reported cases. Transwomen themselves have said they are at no risk in the mens. They've said the worst they get is a smirk.
The fact that effiminate gay men still go in the mens show this also.
The fact that some women who find the line for the ladies too long and duck into the mens, also proves this. They aren't attacked in the mens.

It's never been about safety. Only about transwomen wanting to be validated by being in the ladies. If it was ever about safety, they would have advocated for third spaces long ago, when we said we'd support them in that endeavour.

Yet, there was that man who identifies as a women who shared a photo of '1000 days of safely using the men's toilets' or something similar (I might have got the number of days wrong). However, he was clealy not having any issues using the men's despite his 'female' presentation.

Tish is still giving interviews and has had a very steep learning curve.

https://x.com/salltweets/status/1996404005698953664?s=20

"Straight girls like to see dick in their changing room".

What the ever loving fuck.

These absolute nasty, predatory, idiotic wankers.