A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

No. I know. You’ve not read my other posts then 🙄

Being male isn't an 'identity'; it's a biological fact. If some males don't want to be in spaces with other males, they can use their vast male entitlement, lobbying power and wealth to fight for 'special male' spaces/prizes etc.
The females who support them can then choose to join them in their special places. Then the TIMs and the women who don't like female rights will both be validated. Amd women's rights can remain intact.

Again, when creating policy on publicly accessible and uncontrolled single sex provisions, there is no magical 'modern safeguarding' principle in the UK. In the UK, that principle remains based by sex.

'You may as well say “Let’s just ban men from everywhere; they are all potentially dangerous all of the time.” Which they are.'

No one thinks this. No one has proposed this. This is hyperbole.

I guess people can self identify as “feminist” in exactly the same way as men can self identify as “women” @TheKeatingFive- it’s just words on a screen

I'm very dubious. You talk over people like a man, you write like a man. I suppose I should have done an advanced search on you before responding.

Mamma246 the issue some people seem to have with trans women using women’s toilets stems from the fear that men might exploit gender identity to harm women. That fear, while understandable in a safeguarding context, can be deeply damaging to trans women

"Your fear is valid, women, but clam up will ya? Coz men's feels"

"assigned’ female at birth" is the term everyone has agreed on.

Not my preference, darling.

Now as to the rest of your claim - no we can't all 'clock that they were a women' .

Plus, one can tell that the photos are filtered more then a drip coffee-maker.

Oh I have continued to read your posts. I'm afraid you seem to be the only one finding them logical or convincing though, as you may have noticed by everyone else's responses.

I haven’t noticed any posts suggesting that height reveals sex or that any posters are fixated on height.

Globally, males are, on average about 10-15cm taller than females. Height is one of the factors that influence our perception of whether someone is male or female.

I don’t think a 5’3 transwomen would pass because of their height alone, nor a 5’3 transman fail to pass because of this. I don’t think any posters are suggesting this.

And also 'I am totes a feminist'

I agree that both trans women and natal females are diverse and can face vulnerability, and that there are contexts where excluding males is important for privacy or recovery.
Where we may differ is that trans women are legally and socially recognised as women, and inclusion in single-sex spaces can be managed safely through risk- and context-based policies. Providing options like single-occupancy or gender-neutral facilities allows trans women access without compromising the safety or dignity of natal females.
In short, inclusion isn’t inherently incoherent; it depends on how safeguarding is applied.

But trans ideology absolutely upholds gender stereotyping.

It claims a man can think or feel 'like a woman'.

Only takes a nanosecond to realise how utterly sexist that is.

Even attempting to come up with a list of examples of how a man can 'think like a woman' tells you everything you need to know.

Sounds like it

I must have missed that referendum when that was decided.

Nobody is assigned a sex at birth , it is observed and recorded

Having men in women only spaces (not just toilets) creates unnecessary risk and distress for women and girls, the people the spaces are intended for. You and your friends will have to get your own spaces.

Where we may differ is that trans women are legally and socially recognised as women, and inclusion in single-sex spaces can be managed safely through risk- and context-based policies.

This is nonsense. The law is clear.

It's funny as I've seen height referenced so many times when identifying transwomen as men. I guess we all notice different things.

.

👆🏼that was the point.

👋🏼 and there’s you. Feminists want equality.

They aren’t “legally and socially recognised as women” that’s complete nonsense 🙄

https://www.uwmedicine.org/practitioner-resources/lgbtq/lgbtq-inclusion-glossary

"assigned’ female at birth" is the term everyone has agreed on.

Everyone? Yes, that must be why people these days say 'Oh how lovely - did they have an assigned female at birth or an assigned male at birth?' rather than a boy or a girl.

The whole passing thing is a red herring I'd say.

Clearly it's not possible to allow passing men into women's spaces without allowing completely non-passing men in. Blokes indistinguishable from any other bloke. There's no clear boundary between the two. It depends on who's looking, how perceptive they are and how mired in sex sterotypes they are. Far far more TW think they pass than actually pass or are even obviously trying.

We need to have men banned from women's spaces or they aren't women's spaces and there's no way to evict or avoid obvious, dangerous men.

Make spaces single sex, if some people cheat and get away with it then they're cheats who got away with it. Hopefully out of solidarity with their less passing mates, they'll do the right thing and use the third options or the gents'.

I'm not sure you'll convince anyone that you're a feminist, if you are pretzelling female provision to this extent, just to satisfy a handful of men.

no, we don't have to make all female provision single use, or mixed sex because a tiny number of men are sad!!

Did you mention "phrenology"? I think you are taking the piss now
And there's nothing wrong with short men, most actors are, but that's by the by PHRENOLOGY? Now I know you are just on here for fun