A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

This also ignores the fact that the harms of men in women’s spaces are not limited to the risk of sexual assault. We have women’s spaces for reasons of privacy and dignity as well as safety. Any man entering is knowingly violating women’s boundaries.

No I've never been surprised to find out that a man dressed as a women is really a man and not a biological women.
I think you can tell.
And if you see them a lot ie at work I'd be very surprised if you couldn't tell/pick it up.
I think we are programmed to pick this up and notice it as a basic human biological response.

Giving some thought to the two different TIM who work in shops in my local mall.

One of them seems to be autistic. It's quite possible he thinks that he is passing. To me he feels like an autistic man dressed as a woman.

My autistic family members have been exposed to trans indoctrination through their local school clubs. One of the girls spoke about finding it harder to tell the difference between men and woman visually and thought it was an autistic trait.

Not sure how true this would be but it may add to the vulnerability of that group and a possible perceived difference in how people view them?

It is actually irrelevant how many times one female person posting on the internet noticed.

It is, however, relevant how many times a female person who needed a space to be female only noticed. It only takes a female person to notice a male person enter or be in a space, even while she is outside, it to cause a degree of harm to that female person if they need that space to be female only.

Just because a female person posting on the internet didn't notice a male person one time when they were not paying attention because right at that moment it was not important to them, personally, does not negate the need for all male people over the age of 8 years old to be excluded.

I suppose it’s possible that our ability to correctly identify sex varies. Just as some people have poor facial recognition capabilities. The individual in the “gotcha” photos is really obviously a man to me and I find it hard to believe it’s not obvious to everyone.

I have known of trans people who 'lived quietly and peacefully in our midst' for over 30 years. The fact they lived quietly and peacefully did not mean we weren't aware they were trans. Everyone in my workplace was fully aware our TW colleague was trans. However because we were 'kind and inclusive" and didn't have a crystal ball to know where we'd end up, we bent over backwards to pretend we hadn't noticed they were trans. Example, colleague being stared at and pointed out by smirking men. Us "Ooh you've pulled!" TW colleague affirmed (though we didn't know that term then) and preening.
You're right though. If Stonewall hadn't pushed so hard and aggressively, this is probably what we'd still be doing. And TW would not have been faced with the harsh realities. People would have continued to pretend and patronise from a place of pity.

Hurrah we're now had "but intersex" I call house!!!

Strange then isn't it, that for decades and decades prior to the turn of this century, and only as far back as around 10-15 years, it was very workable. Old ladies hitting the male voyeurs in the womens with their canes or handbags, we'd scream and scare them off, we'd call the police and the filthy pervert would be charged with Voyeurism/Indecent Exposure offences, and societal males in the neighbourhood would 'deal with him', and if he survived that beating, he never chanced it ever again! Back then, women had power to call these men out, and they were charged, and shamed and 'dealt with'. Now, womens power had been taken away, if we called the police, we were the ones who would get in trouble.

That's the difference. All we need to do is go back even as little as 15 years ago. It was workable for decades and decades and decades, don't tell me in 10-15 years we have lost that ability.

That is not a response to my post which was responding to yours asking why men would ever say, "I'm a woman" just to access female toilets. That's why. And that's why it's important to keep all men out - whatever they think or feel about themselves personally.

In answer to your latest, separate, question, I refer you to my earlier post of this thread which read:

"I acknowledge that it's hard to prove a negative and so it is potentially possible that I have seen men who present themselves as women and thought they were actually women.

However, I have also encountered an awful lot of men who genuinely seem to think they pass for women who absolutely do not. I have also witnessed many people around them go to great lengths to try to shore up the illusion on their behalf and insist (to the man in question and others) that they definitely do pass in spite of the blatant evidence to the contrary staring everyone in the face.

I have also never yet seen a particular example held up of someone "you'd never know!" who you actually would never know (or at least strongly suspect) is a man.

Because of this, plus knowing the extremely persistent, wide-ranging and subtle effects of testosterone exposure, plus understanding the evolutionary need (especially for women) to be able to distinguish males from females at a glance, I tend to think it's unlikely that I'm just being hoodwinked and that men are genuinely being 'outed' as such to the surprise of those around them.

I fully believe that people around them will pretend surprise so as not to offend, though.

A bit of a tangled web to be weaving, and with unintended consequences, but I understand that people are trying to #bekind."

I also don't hold with the idea that just because some people, some time, may get away with breaking the law there is no point in having that law. That applies to this as much as any other law that is sometimes broken with impunity.

Precisely.

To get back to the OP, Article 8 is a limited right. Rights are always balanced 'against' one another as otherwise the concept of 'rights' - which has to be universal - wouldn't be. That is irrespective of the fact that TRAs believe their rights always win against women's rights. TRAs are legally incorrect on that point.
Laws have to be 'certain' so that the Rule of Law can exist. Laws based on sex are certain. This is irrespective of the fact that some people will break the law, and/or whether the people breaking the laws are nice, or males who want female rights.
There are 2 sexes and sex is binary. This is irrespective of the fact that there are individual differences between members of the same sex.
Males, at population level, are bigger, stronger, faster, more violent and more criminal than females. This is irrespective of the fact that individual males can be small and/or nice and individual females can be big and/or nasty.
If TRAs are desperate to dismantle female rights, they should at least have the gumption and intellectual rigour to do so on the basis of honesty (eg: 'we think women's righta have gone too far and are unfair to males'?), instead of by talking nonsense about law, biology, ecology, statistics and patriarchy.

Again, you're not getting it. Now they don't have to put on a dress. Before, they did. As I have proved, data shows that transwomen DO attack women and girls in the ladies. And, in addition, data also proves that transwomen sexually offend at least 5 times greater than other males.

And again, no male 'passes', we'd know. Finally, 'they've done it before so why can't they keep breaking the law' is not exactly the argument you want to be seen advocating....

Shocked face.

Oh here is the 'whatabout the intersex' ploy. Full bingo card here! Intersex are still male or female. They are not a third sex or in between sex. And they know what sex they are and where they should be. Also, they've asked they not be weaponised in this debate. Please respect their wishes.

Thats nice for them and I genuinely hope that their MH is imporoved by transitioning but if the options were Trans women have MH issues OR I allow them into Women only spaces I choose the former.

Just because women don't point and scream at TW it does not mean they pass as women

So you don't read court reports, police reports, or news reports. In other words, you'd rather remain ignorant.

Key Studies & Reports

1. Williams Institute – “Safety and Privacy in Public Restrooms and Other Gendered Facilities” (Feb 2025)
2. Found no evidence that allowing transgender people to use restrooms matching their gender identity increases safety/privacy violations. Williams Institute+2PinkNews+2
3. Found that transgender people frequently are denied access, verbally harassed, or physically assaulted when forced to use restrooms that don’t match their gender identity. Williams Institute+2Williams Institute+2
4. Example data: ~10 % of trans men were denied access and ~11 % verbally harassed in women’s restrooms (i.e., restrooms matching sex assigned at birth) in a survey. Advocate.com+1
5. National Center for Transgender Equality (via their reports) – Transgender People and Bathroom Access
6. Reports that 68 % of transgender people have been verbally harassed and 9 % physically assaulted in a public restroom in the last 12 months. A4TE+1
7. Notes that “there is no link between trans-inclusive bathroom policies and crimes in bathrooms or locker rooms.” A4TE
8. Study: “Transgender and nonbinary young people’s bathroom avoidance and mental health” – survey of ~12,596 trans & non-binary young people (ages 13–24)
9. Found ~49 % reported sometimes avoiding public restrooms in the past year; ~22 % reported alwaysavoiding. PubMed+1
10. Among those avoiding restrooms: 67 % reported “holding it” when needed; 38 % abstained from eating/drinking to avoid bathroom use. PubMed+1
11. Those who always/ sometimes avoided had almost twice the odds of attempting suicide in the past year compared to peers who never avoided. PubMed+1
12. Study: “Gender Identity Disparities in Bathroom Safety and Well-being among High School Students”
13. Among trans students (in US sample of ~1,046 high schoolers) safety in school facilities (including restrooms) was an explanatory factor for well-being disparities. PubMed
14. Study in Western Australia: “Gender-Neutral Toilets: A Qualitative Exploration of Inclusive School Environments for Sexuality and Gender Diverse Youth”
15. Interviews found school toilets were “least safe spaces” for LGBTQ+ youth; school staff and policy‐makers supported gender-neutral toilets as anti-bullying measures. MDPI
16. Briefing: “Key Points of Information – Bathroom Access for Transgender Students” (Public School Defenders Hub, 2023)
17. Reports: 35 % of transgender/gender-nonbinary students with restricted bathroom/locker-room access reported sexual assault in last 12 months vs ~26 % of all students. contemporary policy institute -+1
18. Highlights that exclusionary policies are associated with depressive moods, serious consideration of suicide, etc.

This poster is talking in their ideological jargon about 3 women who identify as men and one man who identifies as a woman.

Now show me the peer reviewed evidence for your opinion

How many times have you shared toilets with trans people and not even noticed?
🙄

This stupid argument has been answered so many times, even in reply to you, yet you still attempt this desperate whataboutery.

You’ve posted quite a diverse variety of links. Please explain in your own words what point you are trying to make. Is that men who identify as women should be able to use women’s toilets because they are disadvantaged using the men’s?

I home ed my kids. This community is saturated with trans kids and parents. I know dozens.

I've never ever met a single one who came close to passing.

All the talk of masculine looking females and feminine looking males and/ or identity is irrelevant to single sex provision. A single sex provision is for a single sex where ‘sex’ is defined by biology not certificates or perception.

Females should be able to disregard appearances, knowing that any female only provision will be populated only by females. It is irrelevant whether a male using the space looks like a male, or if one or one hundred females accept or rejects some males sharing the provision - no natal male should use the provision because it’s for natal females. There really is no debate to be had on this.

Anyone arguing for inclusion of transwomen in female only provision is arguing for replacing female only provision with a different type of provision that includes both sexes. Those making a case for who should and shouldn’t be included in various types of mixed sex provision can discuss appearances, who does and doesn’t pass etc. but this debate is a different one to that of who should be included in single sex, female only provision. No natal males, regardless of appearance, surgical alteration or identity belong in provision for exclusive use by females.

Posters who want to see mixed sex provision that is based on gender identity which may or may not include further criteria linked to ‘passing’, please can you suggest a name for this type of provision so it doesn’t get confused with ‘female only’.

These males turn up here boasting about their imposition on female spaces and we're expected to be polite and "respectful" to them, and refrain from directing towards them the obvious point that they're awful men who have no respect for women's boundaries, and that pretending to be a woman is no excuse for their behaviour.

I think the women you are assuming think that it will magically keep male people out is misreading quick answers. From looking at the regular posters on this thread, I doubt any of them think it is a magic solution. Some new names may.

As so many of us have discussed this issue so often, perhaps some shorthand their answers.

Getting clarification of the law will be just the start. Then comes the period of re-education where those male people who believe that they have the entitlement to access any female single sex provision will need to understand that they can no longer do this, and why. That is going to be a very long process but I am optimistic that we will eventually we will get there.

Sure, some male people will continue. However, if all female people know their rights and that they can leave that situation as soon as they are able to, that is a huge step to start with.