A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

Yes. But I prefer single sex. Why are you so invested in making all toilets and female spaces mixed sex?

I would have had people calling the police many times in my life then. I have been challenged in ladies loos, particularly when wearing business suits, many times over.

Thanks for that, your right not to have male bodied people, however innocuous and well hidden, in your space will trump my right to have a pee in peace.

Surely you can see the problem? You might be able 100% to tell I'm female but there have been plenty of people in my life who couldn't.

White, European, no. But from Mexican, Japanese, some African backgrounds, Asian, yes, because of the androgynous nature of the bone structure/height/frame etc.

C sections are usually due to thinks like breech position and other risk factors. Not because the woman has a 'male' pelvis.

Can you share some examples?

Yes indeed. I volunteer at a local, rural historic site and three TIMs come regularly. Dressed to the nines in high heels to walk around the estate.
At one of our village pubs, 6 TIMs make up a quiz team. It’s like watching Les Dawson - bad wigs and ill fitting skirts.

Clearly they haven’t shut down women’s concerns. And the motivation is not entering a toilet. They can just follow you home, or sit next to you on a train instead. plenty more evidence of that happening.

How would you feel if a man asked to enter female toilets because his young daughter needed to use the loo and he didn’t want to leave her on her own? Would you let him in?

Yes exactly. I have the right to female only spaces. If women are more vigilant, than take that up with the men forcing their way into female spaces. If we could be sure only females were using those spaces, we wouldn’t have to question anyone in them. So take it up with the men claiming they have a right yo be in there.

No. He can use the unisex.

Me, too, and same. I thought that absurd line of argument had died (of embarrassment).

FTR I'm an 'inverted triangle' with narrow hips. My pelvis is not the same shape as a male pelvis. The fact that the PP thought it's only a matter of width shows the utter lack of interest these people have in female humans. To be fair to them, medical science only discovered that women aren't dickless men about 20 years ago.

My shoulders and back are broader than the average woman's, in both measurement and proportion. My shoulders are still nothing like a man's, the muscle attachments are very different, my clavicles are much finer and at a different angle.

I honestly don't know how people can be so blind. Actually, I don't believe they are! They're fashionably pretending, I reckon.

But then, if you believe people can look non-binary, you have definitely been soaked in a worrying soup of genderism.

If there were no more appropriate spaces, he didn't want to use a cubicle in the men's for a good reason and he asked permission of all the women using the facilities then I would be okay with that.

But that's not what the TIMs are doing.

Well. You’ve said more than I can ever say… you seem like you’ve had a bad experience

Zero data? Um.... you should have checked your facts there. And again, it's about privacy and dignity away from the male gaze, not just safety.

A news report is not data. 🙄

What are you doing in there?! Cubicles are for privacy. Use them. I don’t want to see what you’re afraid of them seeing either 🤢

This is not and never has been about 'trans people'. It's about male vs female. It's about males in female spaces. 'Trans people' are not some third sex or non-sex or alien lifeform. They are either male or female.

I love in east/central London and have only ever seen about four transwoman in real life. And I've never met one. That I'm aware of. Either there are loads that pass, or there actually aren't that many of them in general.

I would say I was ‘taken in’ about 20 odd years ago seeing the show of ‘The Ladyboys of Bangkok’ until I met them after the show. On stage, it seemed flawless but up close it was not. Too tall, hands too large, feet too large, etc.

Honestly this thread has been like a handy trip through every " yehbut yehbut but yehBUT????" through out the years and a handy reminder how TRA achieved so much traction - it's because as this thread demonstrates they dont like hearing no and will go on and on and oooooonnnn throwing in every conceivable tangential "yehBUT what about????" they can think of.

I completely get how in a patriarchal society it's been so much easier for organisations and companies to just give in just to make the endless emails & meetings & demands just finally stop. After all it's only women's things they were giving up and women won't mind right? And even if women did mind they wouldn't know because they crated conditions that made it almost impossible for women to express their discomfort anyway

Or is this about men in women’s spaces?

You're finally getting it! It's only ever been about men in women's spaces. Nothing else.

I’m totally for accepting trans people in society, and I’m sure the vast majority of people also are.
It doesn’t mean anyone else has to believe humans can change sex, or that our laws should reflect that either.

How could I prove to a woman who isn't as sure as you that they can 100% identify sex, who has challenged me, that I have a right to use the loos? Only yesterday there was a woman in the gym who was uncomfortable until I stripped off. I think it's lucky that I don't like being shut in a cubicle, it reassures them when they see I haven't got a penis.

I am actually reasonably obviously female but I have very broad shoulders, narrow hips, walk very upright and straight, have short hair and am only slightly under average male height. I see the look of fear that occasionally flashes across the faces of women in the changing rooms as I walk in, then they realise I'm female. Some need more reassurance that's the case than others.

If you were one of those women, you would have to demand I strip to use a public loo to get that reassurance.

Can't you see the problem? Do you have a workable solution?

The TIMs are doing… what? Wanting privacy to use a toilet? I’ve used men’s toilets before in a pinch. It’s a bodily function that sometimes becomes an emergency. How cruel to not let someone use a toilet.

But that’s not what we’re scared of is it? We’re scared of men hurting us. And that has been an issue for a very long time. That’s what should be the focus.

I know of 3 MTF Transwomen and they don't pass at all. They are tall, built like men, wear overtly feminine and often inappropriate clothing and constantly talk about how hot they are. They are not. One of them has had full surgery and looks ridiculous. They are also insufferable.

I also know of another MTF Transwomen and whilst she probably doesn't pass well despite full surgery, she's not exaggerated and she's a sweetheart. So all of it is probably part of their personality.

I also am aware of 2 MTF Transwomen that are smaller but are still clearly men.

I think I can spot MTF maybe not so much FTM. What has always annoyed me is the focus on trans taking away from the women's agenda. And this Cis nonsense.

Why?

I have met several trans women and not realised they were trans, from teens through to full fledged adults. Its called "passing"
and it happens ALL the time. Its likely you've not noticed because you've not noticed.