A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

Exactly It’s nit a trans issue. It’s a male entitlement issue. Men believing if they claim to be women they get access to female spaces. Their make sense of entitlement and lack of concern for women shows they’re as much women as im a space hopping unicorn.

This is exactly right and I notice this too. Exaggerated hair flicks (as if womanhood is the herbal essences advert to them) and yes, the size, the gait, the way they walk. It's so so obvious in real life. And I do admit to having been fooled by a couple of pictures online. It's amazing what a filter can do.

Unfortunately for them, it just isn't possible in real life. Also women (us, the real kind) can correctly sex humans even accurately than men. We notice quicker. It's to do with our instincts to do with protecting ourselves, I always notice quicker than my DH does, but when I quietly point it out he can then notice and say oh yes, I see now.

There's a TiM at one of our local cinemas, doesn't wear really sexualised clothing (probably because there's a dress code) or anything but very, very clearly male. Extremely deep voice, huge hands, not as tall as my DH but well built. Pleasant to engage with but I'd still not want him using the women's toilets. I've not encountered it yet but would be uncomfortable if I did. He's so young as well, early 20s I'd say, maybe younger. This ideology has captured a whole generation. The girls come off worst I think though (as usual). They are the ones I've read that tend to follow through with the extreme surgery etc.

Errrr it's because TW are men so of course it's a men's issue

No one is asking you to drop your pants 🙄

If there is any doubt at all, the individuals voice gives it away immediately.

I really REALLY wish the focus wasn't so much on toilets. The Supreme Court case was brought in relation to concerns about women's representation on public boards being undermined by an erasure of sex in law. And, more generally, about the very pervasive possible policy effects of such an erasure.

The toilet issue seems to have become an enormous, enormous distraction .

There are many men with ED who would find it extremely upsetting to have it pointed out to them that dicks were evolved to get hard and find it very demeaning.

I can't believe you don't realise that.

Does anyone have an example of a transwomen in the public eye that they think passes? Out of interest?

I am also one of those women too.

And I have female q angles and hip placement. Just because one aspect of a female body lies outside the average range, doesn’t mean enough of that person’s body cues are not very quickly and intuitively discernible as female body cues.

Yet we have just been leveraged in some people’s proof that our bodies defy our correct sex being able to be identified. It is quite something to see, isn’t it?

The whole world is built to men’s convenience. Why would they feel the need to dress up as women, take hormones or go through painful surgery rather than just force their way into our spaces like they always have? That’s the issue isn’t it.

Ummm it’s a word beginning with f and ends in ish thst we’re not allowed to say on here. So what’s the difference between a man wearing a dress forcing his way into women’s spaces and one not wearing a dress? They’re both men right? Are we supposed to let the one with a dress on in? Why?

Did you not read the post you quoted? It was about compelled belief. Having (partial) Sunday opening hours is not the same as forcing people to believe in the contents of the bible. Yes, christian traditions and institutions are (unfortunately) still pervasive in some areas of UK life, but it's not even the norm to be a practising christian, never mind compulsory! Not being able to go to Sainsbury's after 4pm on a Sunday does not mean I have to believe in god.

But they don't have to do any of those things to access women's spaces. All they have to say is 'I identify as a woman' and then women aren't allowed to express their concerns as that's transphobic.

And yet did you know they found a cure for ED before they found a cure for endometriosis. Funny that isn’t it?

We’re not talking about one man with ED, we’re talking about diagrams that show that dicks get hard. Like the diagram that shows men’s pelvis’s are different from women’s because of the birth process.

It’s not about individual function. I can’t believe you don’t realise that. Hard of thinking, perhaps.

I look at it as one of the issues that people think about because it is an everyday impact.

Plus, if toilets are not part of securing of protection for women and girls in the current discussions, when will we be able to secure female single sex toilets?

Let's suspend disbelief for a moment and accept that some of you can 100% identify males.

You're in the loos. You spot one who isn't outwardly obvious. You challenge them. They refuse to accept your challenge and carry on quietly using a cubicle and washing their hands.

What are you going to do?

Demand they strip?
Call the police?
Use your martial arts training to eject them?

Is there any practical solution you can suggest?

No- you’ve completely misunderstood. Where do gender ideals even come from?

But why would they even bother doing that? And why is trans men occupying men’s spaces not an issue being discussed?

Call the police, scream and announce very loudly there’s a man in there. I now give no fucks. I will make a scene. They want to be a criminal, let’s treat them like one.

Which he did, he used the ladies as dictated by his born sex.

Its no bother at all and they get to shut down women's concerns. Unfortunately that is plenty motivation enough for some men.

Have you ever used unisex toilets?

I don't think there can be. Because they are only 1% of the population and most of us see as many as we would expect to see given the statistical likelihood. If there were hoardes of others in addition to those we see, the percentage of the population they comprise would surely be greater than 1.

The patriarchy. Do keep up dear. And as for the female identified trans in men’s spaces, you’ll find a lot of trabs identified females still use female spaces. Or unisex. Because they’d be scared to use the men’s. If men feel uncomfortable with females using their spaces, that’s on them to deal with.

There really is not a "huge" overlap between males and females. There really, really is not.