A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

What is the issue with men in women’s spaces?

Are you seriously asking us 'what is the issue' with men entering the ladies? Or ladies change rooms? Are you for real? Like, we have mens and womens intimate single sex spaces for a reason!

Why is it that most of these men on social media don’t remotely “pass” then? Even though they often appear to believe that they do.

When you encounter these men in real life they don’t have the benefit of filters. The vast majority of them went through a normal male puberty.

🙄

Because those are the attention seeking activists and the attention seeking activists are the ones who've caused all this trouble, after trans people living quietly and peacefully in our midst for a very long time.

Stonewall has so much to answer for. It has shat all over the very people it claimed to be representing.

They can use a toilet though, can’t they? The toilet for their sex. Whether you’ve barged into the men’s loos before is irrelevant, but most men don’t want you there.

With self-ID they don't have to take hormones or do anything. And putting on a dress to spy on/prey on women and girls takes no effort at all. In fact, it's part of the sexual thrill.

Doctors, priests, teachers etc study for years, and spend years grooming their victims, yet you think putting on a dress is a step too far? Seriously? You haven't thought about this issue very deeply at all have you.

I’m sorry, I don’t believe that most of these men aren’t immediately recognisable as men, and I don’t want any of these men in women’s spaces. It’s a violation of women’s rights in and of itself.

Why what?

Why don’t I think everyone should be forced to say and behave like they believe in the same thing by law?

A female person can then make an informed decision that works for them.

Different people will respond in different ways. We have seen enough women testimonies to know that each needs to make their own choices. Some will simply leave, may or may not inform security or report it to whatever authority they feel might help make sure that person doesn't use that toilet again. Some will stand outside and inform other female people so they too can make a choice for themselves. Others will challenge the person again. Some will be highly distressed but not react visibly at that time.

You seem to be under the illusion that women believe that no male person will ever again enter a female toilet. What law provides 100% protection? None that I can think of. Yet, the very fact we have confusion about what the law does and doesn't protect is an issue in and of itself.

The practical solution for the UK is to make sure that all of the population of the UK understand that a female toilet is only for female people if it is designated that way. Wouldn't it be great if there was no doubt about who can and cannot use the female toilets as a starting place? From there, female people can make decisions for themselves about how to act.

Maybe the poster lives in Brighton?

@Mamma246 is it your belief that TIM should be allowed to access spaces such as women’s toilets, prisons, rape crisis women’s sessions/counselling because you feel that TIM pose no harm?
In schools do you feel a TIM adolescent should sleep in a girls dorm on a field trip because they pose no harm, no safeguarding concerns?

This.

Why wouldn't they bother doing that? It takes zero effort! And putting on a dress is part of the thrill. If they even bother to put on a dress at all.

If you read the entire thread before, you would seen that's been addressed. As females, trans men are not a threat to fellow females the way males are. That's why!

I never challenged the man in my toilets at work because he would have reported me to HR. HR policy pre-FWS was that people could use the facilities of their choice.
I felt mortified, humiliated, angry and powerless. My colleagues and I had a warning system to alert one another to his presence in there.
Yet he’s the one who has been off sick since the SC ruling because he “doesn’t feel safe”.

In case anyone is in any doubt I no more want men in our spaces than you do. I'm just waiting for someone to come up with a workable solution that doesn't make unachievable demands or degrade the lives of those women with a more masculine physiology.

Anyone?

Rather low rate of "passing" amongst the individuals pictured in this sample, isn't there?

I now do have that problem and I blame the males who dress as women for causing me to be anxious about that. It’s obviously not other people’s fault if they’re confused by those who seek to deceive

It all depends on what 'living quietly and peacefully in our midst' means though.

If any male person was using any female single sex provision, they were not 'living quietly and peacefully in our midst'.

If those male people who have a transgender identity don't use any female single sex provision and respect the needs of female people, then it could be said that in those instances they were 'living quietly and peacefully in our midst'.

Unisex are marked as such, and are not single sex toilets....

But that’s the point isn’t it? They’ve never had to ‘put on a dress’ have they? The issue is women’s safety, and recently acknowledged data represents that only 11% of sexual assaults on women are happening in toilets and none of this includes trans data. I wonder how many times you’ve shared toilets with trans people and not even noticed?

Completely misunderstood what? I was simply referring to the fact that you'd misunderstood the post you were quoting, which had nothing to do with gender ideals. It was to do with being compelled to believe things which are not objectively true - i.e. that deities exist or that a male person can be a woman. The fact that people can't change sex has nothing to do with 'gender ideals'. It's a simple biological fact.

And as soon as you turned around and they saw you and heard you speak, they wouldn't have called the police. So your argument is null and void.

Answering a question that wasn’t asked

Her sex. There’s no way to change.