"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 2

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Link to Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, evidence from KD (Day 1) and BH (Day 2).

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The NHS trust’s HR department dismissed the nurses’ concerns, stating they should “broaden their mindset” and “be educated”. More details can be found at Sex Matters and at Christian Concern who are supporting the nurses via the CLC.

The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online, requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, second claimant to give evidence
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany

Other abbreviations:
WFTCHTJ – Waiting For The Conference Host To Join
ET - Employment Tribunal
DMH/H – Hospital, Darlington Memorial Hospital
CR/CF - changing room or facilities
IX - internal investigation
XX – cross examination

Indeed. It's often advised on here that in the light of the extreme out of control aggression, threats and bullying publicly evident in the behaviour of so many male transactivists, women and girls really shouldn't challenge these men.

Well we know one woman who helped write the Bench Book and is also now a Judge! Michelle Brewer of Allison Bailey's case, that is where Bin-gate came from.

Ahh, the infamous bincident.

I am absolutely determined to make "bincident" happen.

And not just the UK. Many other places are worse, and this case wouldn't have seen the light of day

To me the Graham Linehan punch tweet was so obviously a joke, as many women will not challenge a male in the women's, and if the man refuses to leave they are vanishingly unlike to attack his balls, either by a kick or a punch. That would be a last resort for self-defence if you are under physical attack. The risk of a man getting the better of you in a fight is way too high.

Perhaps it's just men that don't understand that.

How would IW know? What would people do if they notice that IW is male rather than female? Shout, "Hey, you're a man!"?

"Hateful" needs to be on the bingo cards next to "inclusive" and "dog-whistle".

Thanks for the live pasting.

I saw the consultant today and he's very clear that it's a nasty infection I'm battling, with some very heavy duty antibiotics for the next three months. I may not feel well again until it's over.

I slept most of the day and hope to sleep more over the next few days. Unfortunately I'm not allowed any supplements, including iron and Vitamin D, despite mild anaemia, and I've had to come off my HRT as well, so I do feel very grotty.

Myrtle I am so sorry, poor you.

I'm sorry things aren't better for you yet, Myrtle, and [tunnocks] for you.

Sorry to hear that @MyrtleLion

Oh, Myrtle. You poor thing. Rest up and look after yourself. I hope you feel better very soon.

Really sorry it was not better news Myrtle. Maybe ask if you are allowed prebiotics as antibiotics really mess up gut bacteria and they play quite a role in the immune system.

If Tyler is interviewed could he be asked if he made it public knowledge that he's trying to impregnate his wife, or is there no point as they're a heterosexual couple so it's not unusual if they are or aren't trying?

I'm wondering why it would be negative for people to assume married heterosexuals may be trying for a baby. Surely the odd part is him creeping around female only spaces and wanting to stare at women he isn't married to?

@MyrtleLion three months of antibiotics sounds serious. Hope you have plenty of support IRL sending virtual

Hi, I’m new to the thread and would like to join the conversation if that’s ok.

On the subject of hrt, and apologies if this has previously been discussed, what happens when a girl who transitioned in her teens reaches menopause?

Do they even know if they are menopausal and are they offered hrt?

It seems such a minefield to navigate the big change in a woman’s body after years of artificial hormones in the system to mimic a man’s natural biological state.

I fear there is a major shit show in the medical world just waiting to happen

Yessss, JP! Just the job.

And the delicious fact that if they do find a gender bletherer to stand up as expert for the other side, then they have to answer questions. And we all know they don't have any answers or they'd have given them years ago.

Even so, the wording in the EA says they have protection if they are thinking about transition so there are no requirements to change your presentation.

Which is fine and good, of course. If someone says at work 'I'm thinking about transitioning' and their boss says 'right, you're sacked' then they have been discriminated against in connection with trans-ness. Provided nobody attempts to claim that having the PC of Gender Reassignment gives them rights to access spaces for the opposite sex, at which point it would become ridiculous. So it's lucky that that SC confirmed that it didn't.

@senso maybe start a new thread if you want to talk about medical effects of transition. In case you're new to the forum as well as the topic, it's the button with a little logo of a pen and a piece of paper. For me it's in the top right hand corner. There are posters who know a lot but they probably won't see your question in the middle of this thread.

Thank you @thirdfiddle

IANAL, but with respect to RH's counterclaim, I wonder if the "trying for a baby" bit isn't the issue (he's a married heterosexual) - rather, it's telling the media that he had "stopped taking hormones" which could be problematic. This might count as private medical information (whether true or false). So the nurses might be bang to rights on that.

Having said that, I can't see how a finding of harassment of RH on that particular ground would be fatal to the nurses' case.

It wouldn’t be fatal to the ET. It depends on the list of issues and how the Trust managed their complaint. It’s clear the Trust’s policy of allowing employees to use the changing room based on gender was unlawful.

RH isn’t making a counter claim. RH has raised a grievance. The problem is that the Trust could legitimately uphold the grievance and launch a disciplinary investigation for harassment of RH and find the nurses at fault. This could be gross misconduct and/or lead to a complaint to the NMC.

Ok, thanks - my main point was that the taking/not taking hormones bit is the problem, not the "man married to woman is rumoured to want a child" bit.

Didn’t the ‘not taking hormones’ just get extrapolated from ‘wanting a child’? There seems be no suggestion that these nurses had access to his private medical information.

It’s the ‘thinking about it’ part that blows my mind.

Maybe, but I thought what was published originally was "RH has stopped taking hormones because he wants to get his wife pregnant".

It was all based on discussions staff were having about their issues they had with RH in the changing room I think. Earlier in the case one of the nurses said it was even RH's friends having these discussions.

It is not information that the nurses were aware of because RH was their patient or because they accessed his medical records so there is no confidentiality issue in thay sense.

The NMC Code of Conduct is a pretty broad brush that must nurses could be disciplined about at some point or other to be honest. So their employer could try it. But in the face of such obvious safeguarding and workplace regs failures they'd look pretty vindictive doing it.