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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A space for respectful dialogue about sex, gender and diversity

1000 replies

Tandora · 10/10/2025 11:16

This is a thread for posters who want to talk and share a diverse range of opinions about sex, gender, being gender non-conforming and/or trans, and public policy. It is to learn from each other; to engage in a productive exchange, and to hear different sides of the story.

It is not a space for bullying and insults. Please do not join if your intention is to control the conversation and undermine those who disagree with you.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Taztoy · 12/10/2025 09:20

CautiousLurker01 · 12/10/2025 08:12

@Helleofabore I think you are likely right. I find it hard to see that IK at least has not had access to diagnostics and treatment in the town where their training has taken place. Those leaked comments from that former trainer indicated that they all knew he was male even before the two formal tests. I’d be surprised if the local GP hadn’t simply run some hormone screens when periods hadn’t started and there were no visible signs of female puberty. It’s why I have increasingly less compassion as I do feel he and CS have been complicit. I do appreciate the allure of wealth - or even just financial security - when the alternative is relative poverty but the same justification is often offered by anyone committing any sort of crime. And fraud is a crime. And what about the opportunity the female competitors they have beaten have lost to potentially rise above poverty, too?

As @Taztoy has continually highlighted here and on other threads - there is no hierarchy of trauma, poverty, or social deprivation where the fact of being a male with issues (medical or psychological) should trump a woman’s experiences of those same things.

Thank you. That’s exactly where I don’t understand the trans position.

I had to accept that if I want to use the disabled loos, everyone will know I’m disabled (to take rape and SA out of it).

And I don’t like that. It makes me feel different to everyone else I work with because no one else on my floor is disabled.

I would love @Tandora to explain to me what the difference is with the trans experience.

JamieCannister · 12/10/2025 09:34

MurkyWeather2 · 12/10/2025 00:07

I wouldn't be thrilled about it but, for freedom of association reasons, I would rather we allowed it than banned it. It must be crystal clear that it applies to 'feminine GI' or similar wording. Not called 'women', with its true nature hidden away in the T&Cs

It would be a different matter for single-sex spaces, which absolutely should be single-sex by law.

What is a feminine gender identity and how can you be sure that Jack, the bearded 6'5" scaffolder who lives down the road with his pregnant wife doesn't have one?

JamieCannister · 12/10/2025 09:42

EmmyFr · 12/10/2025 07:36

I haven't RTFT but @Tandora I disagree with your premise that we always need nuance and to move away from binaries. E.g. sex with children is evil, full stop. Hoping your cat will live longer than 30 years is absurd, full stop. Someone who produces sperm is male, full stop.

I would argue that a big problem we have today is a failure to understand which issues are incredibly simple to the point that they can be dealt with in 5 seconds (eg "men are never women, TQ+ debate over" or "Hamas is a despicable terrorist organization") and which are incredibly complex (eg Israel Gaza - note I am not saying every aspect is complex, but overall the issue is complex, not least due to the relevance of the very long term, and shorter term (last 80 years) history).

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2025 09:47

JamieCannister · 12/10/2025 09:42

I would argue that a big problem we have today is a failure to understand which issues are incredibly simple to the point that they can be dealt with in 5 seconds (eg "men are never women, TQ+ debate over" or "Hamas is a despicable terrorist organization") and which are incredibly complex (eg Israel Gaza - note I am not saying every aspect is complex, but overall the issue is complex, not least due to the relevance of the very long term, and shorter term (last 80 years) history).

If you don't acknowledge a problem, you don't have to deal with it.

If you can't see sexism, you don't have to take action against sexism.

It's that simple.

BloominNora · 12/10/2025 09:49

CautiousLurker01 · 12/10/2025 06:15

@BloominNora

I am not sure that I follow. You see ‘race’ is not a social construct - it is a biological reality that is visibly observable because of skin colour. And whilst notions of ‘gender’ [as I understand it, which is social expectations attributed to persons according to their sexed body] is also a social construct, it is also predicated on the physical reality of the observable features of the sexed body. The history of drag is rooted in minstrel history - it shares it. It wasn’t just black males that were ridiculed, demonised, belittled by minstrels it was also women. The big, fat black momma, with her waddling gait, enormous breasts and accentuated behind was the first example of woman face - it was both as inherently and unapologetically racist as it was rooted in a malignant form of misogyny that was prevalent in the US in the 1820s when it began.

Moving onto khelif and semenya - I think you are buying the PR that they were raised as girls. Whilst it is totally likely that when they were born, given the poverty and lack of of medical expertise available in rural African or Algerian villages, they were misidentified at birth it is unlikely that this persisted into adulthood. Babies are often born at home, delivered by a local midwife with nothing like the training westernised midwifes have, and thus babies with ambiguous [malformed] genitalia is mistaken for female. In the US/Europe in the last 20-25 years, babies like these two men would be referred immediately for assessment and identified as male babies within days of birth and their correct birth recorded… and a treatment pathway determined.

So, yes, within the social context of their early childhoods they would likely have begun their lives being raised as girls. However male/female phsycal development differentiates even before puberty. 7 year old boys are taller, stronger, their body ratios change, and their behaviour is completely different. It is quite evident from pictures taken and stories shared on social media that these boys - and I use the word boys deliberately - had been identified as such long before puberty but also as a result of their different pubertal pathways confirming that they were not girls. In Algeria, being trans or homosexual is criminalised yet it is quite clear Khelif has lived according to expectations of male society members, from how he dresses, his physical interactions within his community, etc. Pictures of Khelif in suits, etc very much evidence that he was understood by those in his community and his training team to be male, not female. The same for Semenya, if you read biography about him and his autobiography.

There is a whole industry across parts of Africa to identify boys with DSD and to engage them in sports training - this is evidenced by the dozens or so of DSD males in athletics over the decades since sex testing was removed. There is money involved - money that the Olympic Ctee and other sporting bodies make available to these athletes and their trainers that can lift them out of poverty or even in some cases make them relatively rich. It is not a cynical con on their part, but a lifeline out of poverty for these athletes and their families, so naturally that take it. But, nonetheless, it is a con. They, their families and communities, their trainers KNOW they are males but the incentives to persist, to win the medals, earn money from the notoriety, is too enticing.

I feel for them. In the western world they would have access to free medical care from birth, access to operations and hormone treatment that etc and live (superficially at least) relatively normal lives [I assume, I have no idea what the implications are for those people growing up as I’m not a clinician], but the empathy I feel for them does not override the concern for the women whose opportunities they steal when they win their prizes, take their scholarships, undermine their historical records of achievements/their sporting records, or punch them in the face in the boxing ring. And when they KNOWINGLY participate in that con - and by 15/16 there is absolutely no doubt that they now KNOW they are not natal females - they lose all right to empathy and compassion because by then they are complicit in the con.

Edited

No - race is a social construct. https://www.genome.gov/genetics-glossary/Race#:~:text=Race%20is%20a%20political%20and,at%20perceiving%20and%20interpreting%20reality.%E2%80%9D The NHGRI explains it well:

Race is a political and social construct that is fluid. Racial categorization can change over time, place, and context. Race has been used historically to establish a social hierarchy, whereby individuals are treated differently resulting in racism. Genomic scientists are currently investigating the relationship between self-identified race and genetic ancestry. There is more genetic variation within self-identified racial groups than between them. I like Professor Audrey Smedley's definition. She states, “Race is a culturally structured systematic definition of a way of looking at perceiving and interpreting reality.”

Gender is the same and we know this because it too change over time, but unlike race, there is a lot more scope for change. You will never get rid of all gender stereotypes but some can have their power to oppress diminished.

The overt expression of gender is, in the main, clothes, hair, make-up and name and this is what I was talking about specifically. None of those things relate to biological reality which is why we argue that just because a girl is a 'tom-boy' or a boy likes wearing 'girls' clothes, it does not make them trans. TRAs, in contrast, actively lean into those stereotypes.

Re: Khelife (I will put aside Semenya for now because I have conceded I would be willing to re-consider my position on them).

You are assuming that all people 5-ARD condition have ambiguous genitalia, but it is my understanding from reading up on it that that is not always the case - sometimes they will have female genitalia - and we do not know which it is for either of them.

I have been very clear about my view that they should not be involved in female sport, but if Khelife was born and raised female (which the pictures I've seen of her as a child seem to indicate), particularly in a society like Algeria, her formative years will have been very much littered with the same female expectation and oppression of any other girl.

We know how important those early childhood years are psychologically in formation of personality, healthy attachment etc. To turn around and say to someone who has spent the first 10-15 of their lives as a girl, that they now, immediately, have to be a boy is cruel.

Many people with 5-ARD go on to live as men, but, in my view, it should be entirely their choice, and one that is made after extensive counselling following diagnosis.

You recognise that there is a whole industry around getting people with 5-ARD into sports to make money but then you go on to blame the child and say they are complicit in the con say that by 15 they know they are not female and are complicit in the con.

Many of these teenagers have been raised in a society that values girls less than boys, and in some cases raised to be subservient to men. They are just starting to realise they are different to other girls, they are being given a lifeline out of poverty for them and their families by unscrupulous adults and quite possibly not being given the full facts of their medical condition and you call them complicit?

You are expecting a teenager to have a full understanding of a complex medical condition and what it means, stand up to their parents / trainers / community and give up on a dream which has been sold to them?

It has a lot of parrallels to grooming.

People diagnosed with 5-ARD often go on to live as men, but it should be their decision following extensive counselling. It should not be made by other people as part of a witch hunt.

Unrulyscrumptious · 12/10/2025 09:49

JamieCannister · 10/10/2025 12:31

100%. Naive and (to put it bluntly) stupid women have as much right to be safe from men in toilets and changing rooms as any other woman. Anyone demanding mixed sex spaces is - whether they are arguing for an end to single sex spaces, or mixed sex in addition - effectively arguing that they want more sexual assaults on women.

Am I the only one uncomfortable with the number of men on this feminist board feeling comfortable calling women stupid,stupid girls etc? 🤢

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2025 09:49

Totalitarian societies target any organisation which has the ability to measure injustice and inequality because then the society is blind to it, so no one can use that data to expose a problem. Or they manipulate data to hide a problem deliberately.

This is why data integrity matters.

thirdfiddle · 12/10/2025 09:51

JamieCannister · 12/10/2025 09:34

What is a feminine gender identity and how can you be sure that Jack, the bearded 6'5" scaffolder who lives down the road with his pregnant wife doesn't have one?

Yes, you could have your association, but you would not be able to discriminate on sex or presentation. If Jack says he has a feminine gender and wants to come in, he can.

ArabellaSaurus · 12/10/2025 09:53

Unrulyscrumptious · 12/10/2025 09:49

Am I the only one uncomfortable with the number of men on this feminist board feeling comfortable calling women stupid,stupid girls etc? 🤢

Edited

What men? AFAIK Jamie is a woman.

CautiousLurker01 · 12/10/2025 09:54

@BloominNora afraid we’ll have to agree to disagree.

potpourree · 12/10/2025 09:55

Taztoy · 12/10/2025 09:20

Thank you. That’s exactly where I don’t understand the trans position.

I had to accept that if I want to use the disabled loos, everyone will know I’m disabled (to take rape and SA out of it).

And I don’t like that. It makes me feel different to everyone else I work with because no one else on my floor is disabled.

I would love @Tandora to explain to me what the difference is with the trans experience.

That's a really thoughtful point. Sorry you've been demeaned so much on these threads when your posts have been nothing but thoughtful.

The thing that OP and others struggle to acknowledge is that for believers in gender identity, both toilets are now mixed-gender (or no gender) - they are just differentiated by sex. So going in the appropriate one doesn't say anything about your gender identity, just your sex.

To be trans you would need to identify, or at least have some idea about, both things. Eg if I went in the female toilets but felt I had some inner male traits, I wouldn't be "outed" as trans purely by my being female.

thirdfiddle · 12/10/2025 09:56

Which is one of the problems with sorting loos or changing rooms by gender instead of sex. If Jack says he wants to come in there, he can. Jack here including not just nice Jack from down the road but the exact male predators that the facility is designed to exclude.
They'll go in anyway is not the point. If they're not allowed to be there then as soon as we see them we can get help. If they are allowed to be there, the help won't help, and will potentially call us bigots to boot.
See WiSpa incident.

JamieCannister · 12/10/2025 09:57

thirdfiddle · 12/10/2025 09:51

Yes, you could have your association, but you would not be able to discriminate on sex or presentation. If Jack says he has a feminine gender and wants to come in, he can.

I am not sure I agree.

Surely if you advertize as "feminine gender identity" then this can only mean "for women" (so no men can be allowed) or "women and men who identify as women" (which is not allowed). It is a mixed sex group which is inherently discriminatory towards TIFs and men, because both are being discouraged from joining a group which they are perfectly entitled to join because its mixed sex?

ArabellaSaurus · 12/10/2025 09:57

BloominNora · 12/10/2025 09:49

No - race is a social construct. https://www.genome.gov/genetics-glossary/Race#:~:text=Race%20is%20a%20political%20and,at%20perceiving%20and%20interpreting%20reality.%E2%80%9D The NHGRI explains it well:

Race is a political and social construct that is fluid. Racial categorization can change over time, place, and context. Race has been used historically to establish a social hierarchy, whereby individuals are treated differently resulting in racism. Genomic scientists are currently investigating the relationship between self-identified race and genetic ancestry. There is more genetic variation within self-identified racial groups than between them. I like Professor Audrey Smedley's definition. She states, “Race is a culturally structured systematic definition of a way of looking at perceiving and interpreting reality.”

Gender is the same and we know this because it too change over time, but unlike race, there is a lot more scope for change. You will never get rid of all gender stereotypes but some can have their power to oppress diminished.

The overt expression of gender is, in the main, clothes, hair, make-up and name and this is what I was talking about specifically. None of those things relate to biological reality which is why we argue that just because a girl is a 'tom-boy' or a boy likes wearing 'girls' clothes, it does not make them trans. TRAs, in contrast, actively lean into those stereotypes.

Re: Khelife (I will put aside Semenya for now because I have conceded I would be willing to re-consider my position on them).

You are assuming that all people 5-ARD condition have ambiguous genitalia, but it is my understanding from reading up on it that that is not always the case - sometimes they will have female genitalia - and we do not know which it is for either of them.

I have been very clear about my view that they should not be involved in female sport, but if Khelife was born and raised female (which the pictures I've seen of her as a child seem to indicate), particularly in a society like Algeria, her formative years will have been very much littered with the same female expectation and oppression of any other girl.

We know how important those early childhood years are psychologically in formation of personality, healthy attachment etc. To turn around and say to someone who has spent the first 10-15 of their lives as a girl, that they now, immediately, have to be a boy is cruel.

Many people with 5-ARD go on to live as men, but, in my view, it should be entirely their choice, and one that is made after extensive counselling following diagnosis.

You recognise that there is a whole industry around getting people with 5-ARD into sports to make money but then you go on to blame the child and say they are complicit in the con say that by 15 they know they are not female and are complicit in the con.

Many of these teenagers have been raised in a society that values girls less than boys, and in some cases raised to be subservient to men. They are just starting to realise they are different to other girls, they are being given a lifeline out of poverty for them and their families by unscrupulous adults and quite possibly not being given the full facts of their medical condition and you call them complicit?

You are expecting a teenager to have a full understanding of a complex medical condition and what it means, stand up to their parents / trainers / community and give up on a dream which has been sold to them?

It has a lot of parrallels to grooming.

People diagnosed with 5-ARD often go on to live as men, but it should be their decision following extensive counselling. It should not be made by other people as part of a witch hunt.

I reckon most of us here dont care what Imane Khelif calls himself, so long as he desists from punching women in the face for shits, giggles, and a lucrative career.

Unrulyscrumptious · 12/10/2025 09:59

ArabellaSaurus · 12/10/2025 09:53

What men? AFAIK Jamie is a woman.

No, he's not. And not just Jamie there are several posters lately who have previously identified themselves as men getting very comfortable talking this way about women on here.

ArabellaSaurus · 12/10/2025 10:00

As.for 'race is a social construct' well, maybe, but don't make the same daft mistake the genderists did, which is to think that if gender is a social construction it therefore isnt a biological reality. The whole damn problem seems to have been characterised by logic fails the size of the Mariana Trench.

Taztoy · 12/10/2025 10:01

I have to admit I assume that people here are female even if they have a male user name.

I mean. Taz is male afaik. I’m female.

Merrymouse · 12/10/2025 10:06

Helleofabore · 11/10/2025 22:13

indeed. I think I asked for clarification and didn’t really get any. I think in light of the claims made by that poster, it is significant to get clarification. Because the claim could mean many things and it is being used as an appeal to authority.

To me, it makes no difference. We have seen university professors make declarations about being transgender that are nothing but different theories to the ones now proposed by the OP.

I think it is vitally important to keep repeating that these are theories with no proven conclusions.

Obviously any anonymous poster could be typing from a troll farm in Russia, but there is a way of posting about a subject (law, medicine, academic research) that suggests expertise, and it isn't posting a few links without any further explanation, or trying out different arguments on different threads.

BloominNora · 12/10/2025 10:06

Namelessnelly · 12/10/2025 05:32

@BloominNora if IK was raised female, he would never have been allowed to to bios or play football with boys (his origin story). His coach would never have carried him on his shoulders. He is a man. He knows this. Why do you think he never followed through with the lawsuits? Why do you think he has raged against sex testing? If he truly thought he was female, he would have no problem doing the tests and putting all the controversy to rest would he? No one believes he is female.

Edited

Why do you think girls aren't allowed to play football with boys in Algeria? A very quick, cursory Google search finds a number of stories of girls who played football with boys as children as well as confirmation of how important football is in Algerian society.

I'm sure a more in depth research session would find more.

There are very real issues of inequality for women and girls in Algeria without making more up just to fit our own beliefs.

Algeria women footballers wave red card at stigma https://share.google/t51SjuciA0qsop1BY

Fatima: What's it to Ya? - DARBY Magazine https://share.google/SWtYGxIhz4v0V0Cjn

Fatima: What's it to Ya? — DARBY Magazine

FATIMA What’s it to Ya? Photos: Lucy Cully Tell us about yourself. My name is Fatima, or Fati, I was born in Algeria. I immigrated to...

https://darbymag.com/Fatima-What-s-it-to-Ya

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2025 10:06

thirdfiddle · 12/10/2025 09:51

Yes, you could have your association, but you would not be able to discriminate on sex or presentation. If Jack says he has a feminine gender and wants to come in, he can.

This is what gets me with it.

People seem to think transwomen are somehow all passing or close to passing.

I know a guy called 'Bob' who is a beardy transwoman (nice guy but I wish he'd just stick to being a perfectly nice guy who wears make up and nail varnish and quirky clothes rather than a sexist) and then there's the delightful beardy guy at this talk I was at.

Genuinely people think you make it up when you say 'I know Bob. Bob hasn't changed name, has a full beard and doesn't shave but insists on everyone else using She/Her pronouns and being comfortable with Bob using female only facilities.'

We don't even need 'Pete the Plumber'. We have Bob.

I actually like Bob. I know lots of men who are basically sexist but I still like. So I treat him like any other male. If I try and avoided every sexist man I'd never leave the house and that wouldn't be much of a life. I draw the line at women's only stuff because that's where I want to get away from that precisely because of the sexism.

Unrulyscrumptious · 12/10/2025 10:06

Taztoy · 12/10/2025 10:01

I have to admit I assume that people here are female even if they have a male user name.

I mean. Taz is male afaik. I’m female.

That's an odd assumption. There's lots of men on this board.

MurkyWeather2 · 12/10/2025 10:09

recore · 12/10/2025 09:04

There couldn't be such an association, because there is no such thing as "gender identity". So a formal association for people with a 'feminine gender identity' could have no members. (It'd be like an association for people who have a guardian angel, or for people who are both male and female ... or for people with three heads ... .)

Perhaps you mean "a formal association for people who think they have a 'feminine gender identity'"?

[Sorry if this seems pedantic. I notice you say you don't have a gender identity; I think it important to point out (respectfully!) that no-one does.]

I totally (respectfully!) take your point. I think what I mean is more of a feminine-gender identity that a feminine gender-identity IYSWIM. Maybe the gender bit should be ditched and it should just be called Feminine Identity Club.

It would be for people who feel that their identity is bound up with a strong affinity for all things feminine. This would be completely different from someone actually thinking that they have a female or male gender-identity. It would also be culture dependent so it would be interesting to see how 'Feminine Identity' Club would work in a multicultural context.

I don't have a gender identity of either type. Not a 'female' one because, I agree, there is no such thing nor a 'feminine-gender' one because I have affinities for a range of things traditionally considered feminine, masculine or neither.

In my initial post I said the club would exclude non-trans men, but I can imagine there might be some (some effeminate gay men, perhaps?) who would say they have a feminine identity.

Anyway, the thought experiment was to see if you could have a club where women and trans-identified males could socialise without falling foul of the EA discriminations. I cannot see the point of such a club and I would not want to be a member but I would strongly support non-discriminatory freedom of association.

I don't know if this addresses your point too @JamieCannister ?

Taztoy · 12/10/2025 10:10

Unrulyscrumptious · 12/10/2025 10:06

That's an odd assumption. There's lots of men on this board.

I know. That’s why I said I have to admit.

I don’t assume a male username means they’re male though.

WarrenTofficier · 12/10/2025 10:10

BloominNora · 12/10/2025 09:49

No - race is a social construct. https://www.genome.gov/genetics-glossary/Race#:~:text=Race%20is%20a%20political%20and,at%20perceiving%20and%20interpreting%20reality.%E2%80%9D The NHGRI explains it well:

Race is a political and social construct that is fluid. Racial categorization can change over time, place, and context. Race has been used historically to establish a social hierarchy, whereby individuals are treated differently resulting in racism. Genomic scientists are currently investigating the relationship between self-identified race and genetic ancestry. There is more genetic variation within self-identified racial groups than between them. I like Professor Audrey Smedley's definition. She states, “Race is a culturally structured systematic definition of a way of looking at perceiving and interpreting reality.”

Gender is the same and we know this because it too change over time, but unlike race, there is a lot more scope for change. You will never get rid of all gender stereotypes but some can have their power to oppress diminished.

The overt expression of gender is, in the main, clothes, hair, make-up and name and this is what I was talking about specifically. None of those things relate to biological reality which is why we argue that just because a girl is a 'tom-boy' or a boy likes wearing 'girls' clothes, it does not make them trans. TRAs, in contrast, actively lean into those stereotypes.

Re: Khelife (I will put aside Semenya for now because I have conceded I would be willing to re-consider my position on them).

You are assuming that all people 5-ARD condition have ambiguous genitalia, but it is my understanding from reading up on it that that is not always the case - sometimes they will have female genitalia - and we do not know which it is for either of them.

I have been very clear about my view that they should not be involved in female sport, but if Khelife was born and raised female (which the pictures I've seen of her as a child seem to indicate), particularly in a society like Algeria, her formative years will have been very much littered with the same female expectation and oppression of any other girl.

We know how important those early childhood years are psychologically in formation of personality, healthy attachment etc. To turn around and say to someone who has spent the first 10-15 of their lives as a girl, that they now, immediately, have to be a boy is cruel.

Many people with 5-ARD go on to live as men, but, in my view, it should be entirely their choice, and one that is made after extensive counselling following diagnosis.

You recognise that there is a whole industry around getting people with 5-ARD into sports to make money but then you go on to blame the child and say they are complicit in the con say that by 15 they know they are not female and are complicit in the con.

Many of these teenagers have been raised in a society that values girls less than boys, and in some cases raised to be subservient to men. They are just starting to realise they are different to other girls, they are being given a lifeline out of poverty for them and their families by unscrupulous adults and quite possibly not being given the full facts of their medical condition and you call them complicit?

You are expecting a teenager to have a full understanding of a complex medical condition and what it means, stand up to their parents / trainers / community and give up on a dream which has been sold to them?

It has a lot of parrallels to grooming.

People diagnosed with 5-ARD often go on to live as men, but it should be their decision following extensive counselling. It should not be made by other people as part of a witch hunt.

IK was 'discovered' while playing football, with the boys in a society in which the girls 'are rarely seen' outside and don't play physical games with boys.

IK straddled the coaches shoulders and was paraded around the arena. An act that woman raised in the circumstances we are supposed to believe IK was raised in wouldn't do.

The medical evidence tells us IK is a male with a DSD that resulted in an incorrect sexing at birth (something that is often rooted in sexism itself if you aren't a 'proper' man you must be a woman).

The behaviour of IK and of others towards IK tells us that IK was treated like a male from at least the teen years.

But even if someone has spent their entire life mistakenly believing they are female the minute they discover that they are in fact a male is the minute they need to step away from female sport. This may be very sad for them and I'm not without sympathy for someone in that situation but 1000s of aspiring young athletes have to give up on their sporting dreams because of illness or injury and we don't restructure events to accommodate them.

JamieCannister · 12/10/2025 10:11

MurkyWeather2 · 12/10/2025 10:09

I totally (respectfully!) take your point. I think what I mean is more of a feminine-gender identity that a feminine gender-identity IYSWIM. Maybe the gender bit should be ditched and it should just be called Feminine Identity Club.

It would be for people who feel that their identity is bound up with a strong affinity for all things feminine. This would be completely different from someone actually thinking that they have a female or male gender-identity. It would also be culture dependent so it would be interesting to see how 'Feminine Identity' Club would work in a multicultural context.

I don't have a gender identity of either type. Not a 'female' one because, I agree, there is no such thing nor a 'feminine-gender' one because I have affinities for a range of things traditionally considered feminine, masculine or neither.

In my initial post I said the club would exclude non-trans men, but I can imagine there might be some (some effeminate gay men, perhaps?) who would say they have a feminine identity.

Anyway, the thought experiment was to see if you could have a club where women and trans-identified males could socialise without falling foul of the EA discriminations. I cannot see the point of such a club and I would not want to be a member but I would strongly support non-discriminatory freedom of association.

I don't know if this addresses your point too @JamieCannister ?

Is this not just a very complex way or saying "we want a mixed sex women's association" and therefore unlawful?

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