TRA Trolls - can we just say NO?

[BlueEyedBogWitch]

A full thread of NO’s might be more powerful than trying to reason with someone who is not interested in reason.

Just one ‘NO’ each, until they get bored and go away. Every time.

After all, it sums up our arguments very succinctly.

It was your post theorising about why trans people might not want to admit they secretly had AGP.

If someone believes that men are people of either sex, and women are people of either sex.

Is there any single aspect of any person that would determine whether someone is a man or a woman, that isn't a circular 'feeling like a man' or 'feeling like a woman' (both of which would simply feel like 'a person of either sex')?

If you're a male man (person of either sex), what makes you believe that you might actually be a male woman (person of either sex)? What is the differentiating factor?

I always thought it was merely cultural or social notions of femininity or masculinity but perhaps it's not?

If you were to summarize your position and post it on two or three random subreddits you would be permabanned within 12 hours, that is my honestly held opinion based on lots of experience of listening to what trans people and TRAs say, and knowing how trans subs are moderated

Obviously I stand by my words but aplogize for posting them in a way that mumsnet does not like.

Can you imagine why men who claim to be transwomen and want unfettered access to naked and vulnerable women, but who have autogynephilia or transvestic fetishism, would play up the gender dysphoria angle and play down the parpahilia angle?

It’s clearly a belief system that gender identity should be considered more important than sex.

don't think my viewpoint would be likely to be considered transphobic no - other than by gender critical feminists on mumsnet.

Rejecting the notion of gender identity has absolutely been called out as transphobic. By trans people, on MN and beyond. In fact it used to be part of Stonewall's training, if I recall correctly? As part of what transphobia was.

Obviously, because if there's no gender identity, there's nothing to mismatch with sex, and people just... are the sex they are.

It is the gender identity that makes them a man or woman (or neither) so by saying that's not a thing, then they have no way of being the men or women they identify as.

You've learned something!

And not a belief system that most people share.

Well maybe, because it's the nature of social media that you can't capture the complexity of something in a 30 word post - it's inevitably going to come out blunt, simplistic, offensive to one or other person.

HOWEVER, I highly doubt those same redditors would find my opinions transphobic as they are expressed in my writing/ research.

But that's your construction of what people believe, it's not actually what people are saying at all.

My head just exploded 🤯

So biological sex is equally or more important than a man feeling that he’s a woman then?

I’m only doing this for the lurkers, just to be clear.

I do not believe you have been on trans reddit if you think that.

Cripes, this thread moved fast while I was away.

And yet, it didn't move fast at all, because Tandora still hasn't answered my question about why men's philosophical belief about themselves trumps women's need for single sex spaces.

It's not difficult. If you're a serious researcher in this field you can't just cherrypick a convenient half sentence from my posts and claim not to understand the rest.

Fair point. I'm thinking of the distinction between, for instance, a clinician recognising that a male patient has psychological distress/dysphoria over not being female, versus the belief that this implies the male patient is somehow a woman.

Like I'm sure we could both agree that this patient could be reasonably diagnosed with gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder, but I think we would differ in belief about what this means. You would probably hold the belief that this patient is a woman because of expressing a female gender identity, whereas I would view him as a man because he's of the male sex.

The belief that men who call themselves “trans women” are actually aligned in any meaningful way with women is unquestionably an ideological belief.

I'm not sure there is much more to learn here. I'm still going with this post on the other thread:

@Tandora It is literally just that - to have a pervasive , profound, unrelenting recognition of self as being the opposite sex.

@PrettyDamnCosmic What you are describing is a delusion.
A delusion is a firm, fixed, false belief, maintained despite clear evidence to the contrary, and not explained by the person's culture.

I think more research into the reasons for delusions and the best ways to treat them is the way forward, and would also benefit people who suffer other types delusions.

I wish you all good evening💚💜

you would probably hold the belief that this patient is a woman because of expressing a female gender identity, whereas I would view him as a man because he's of the male sex

See to me these are just words - and yes, I suppose to the extent that people are invested in these words then yes they are both belief systems.

I don't have a belief system around that.

To me what matters is describing what is actually true/ exists. - this is a person who has some observable male physical characteristics/ traits, but nonetheless recognises/ understands themself to be female.

Then there is the question of how we should treat that person. Should we treat them according to how they understand themselves? or according to the rules of social convention based on what we can observe about their physical traits?
Well that is a values based question - also informed by the perceived consequences of each course of action.

Then of course there is the question about how we understand this type of experience/ being - what causes it? When we think about that we realise that of course the human body is so much more than the things that we can observe. And then this is a longer conversation...

I am so sorry that Tandora is weaponising your pain like this. How bloody dare she?

How bloody dare you for making up something completely false.

Thank you for admitting finally that the disputed theory that males who identify as “trans women” should be treated as if they are actually women is indeed a belief system. One the majority of the population rejects.

Nobody, least of all me, has ever disputed that questions of social policy are values/ based ideological ones.

It was like pulling teeth, but glad we got there in the end!

And then questions follow from it, such as this one.

I have no doubt it felt that way if you were unable to follow the logic of the conversation.