TRA Trolls - can we just say NO?

[BlueEyedBogWitch]

A full thread of NO’s might be more powerful than trying to reason with someone who is not interested in reason.

Just one ‘NO’ each, until they get bored and go away. Every time.

After all, it sums up our arguments very succinctly.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on this point (although would need more discussion than this thread could hold to work out exactly what you mean in practice) but you do realise that rejecting this widely used notion of transhood would be called extremely transphobic in many spaces?

No. I have never been called transphobic other than by gender critical feminists on mumsnet 😁

Indeed.

Based on a quick bit of google AI...

Anne Lawrence: An American psychologist and sexologist who identifies as a trans woman. Lawrence has published extensively on the theory of autogynephilia and openly identifies as autogynephilic herself.
Debbie Hayton: A British teacher and trans activist. In a 2022 article, he wrote about his personal story
Grayson Perry is a man: Perry has repeatedly and clearly stated that he identifies as a man. The theory of autogynephilia is specifically applied to trans women, which he is not. He resolved early in life that transitioning was not for him, even while finding sexual excitement in cross-dressing. [My words - so he's a transvestic fetishist, who account for 80% of the paraphilic (as opposed to mentally ill) men who claim to be trans]
Conclusion: The lack of a longer list of publicly identified autogynephilic trans women reflects the contentious nature of the theory. Most trans women prefer to frame their identity around gender, not sexual arousal, and see the concept as harmful and inaccurate.

No. Because I don't think that's a reasonable characterisation of the position of people who recognise transness.

There are multiple contrasting belief systems around how trans people should be treated in society - those are properly described as belief systems.

Swerve

Conclusion: The lack of a longer list of publicly identified autogynephilic trans women reflects the contentious nature of the theory. Most trans women prefer to frame their identity around gender, not sexual arousal, and see the concept as harmful and inaccurate.

Tandora

To go off on a tangent... out of all of the detransitioners whose stories you have listened to (perhaps in very long form youtube interviews) which of them do you have most sympathy with? Why? What could and should the medical profession have done differently?

I get don't my knowledge about this subject from watching youtube.

How about you ask us a question @Tandora ?

I'll try to think of one

You certainly need to believe that in some sense there are forms of SOMETHING - gender identities, traits, behaviours, characteristics, preferences etc - that in some way 'align' or 'do not align' with each sex.

That is the basis of being trans - what type of body you have corresponds or doesn't correspond with something else.

No examples of the 'something else' are ever given, except in the gender dysphoria criteria which are all about wanting to play with toys stereotypically played with by the opposite sex, seeking out the company of the opposite sex, etc.

If you think that individual male and female people can be like, want, act like, enjoy, be good at the exact same range of things as an individual of the opposite sex then you would have trouble accepting that the sex of your body dictates those things.

OK tell us about a non-famous detransitioner who you have spoken to at length in real life then?

That is AI, I don't think there is meaning to be gained from picking apart the wording. The point is that even AI recognises that the relationship between AGP and transness is deeply contentious and is rejected by most trans people (and scientists).

But it's a relatively new concept isn't it. Go back to the 19th century and no-one thought that if a male person called himself a woman, that he actually was a woman.

I agree, just another one of the many paradoxes of gender identity ideology.

And yet not all do. And women's experience of men with trans identities in their spaces do often include men wanting that space and the presence of those women as part of the man's desired sexual experience. There are forums of men, take the forum of the men excitedly sharing their stories of raiding sanpro bins for warm and wet tampons to anally insert, or the M&S knickers and wanking on the floor in the women's changing rooms threads. This can't be whitewashed out and those men are entitled to voice their gender expression as anyone else is.

It is not possible to separate groups of men in to 'not using this space and woman as a prop in a sexual experience' or 'not escalating/intent on sexual offending' or even 'won't wank in next cubicle, pee with the door open, or wave swords around threatening to kill women who are insufficiently deferential'. Or even 'not actually trans, just a chancer enjoying sexually harassing women'. It's not even possible to gatekeep on the basis of certificates and medical transition; there's no way to manage or regulate that, or tell. One man is no different to another. And it makes no difference to women anyway; women who cannot share mixed sex spaces can't share with any man, regardless of his circumstance, and needs a space of her own that's accessible to her.

Mixed sex spaces are the answer. The women who consent to participate will be there, and men of all gender identities and circumstances have an alternative to the sex based space they reject. And women who cannot and do not wish to use mixed sex spaces have an accessible space. Men can't have those spaces. End of.

What on earth did you say that got instadeleted @JamieCannister?

Seriously, I find it very hard to believe that you have spoken to lots of trans people and given your honest opinion as per on here, AND you have never been called transphobic. One or other might be true, but not both.

Or do you never share your opinion, just ask questions of them and listen?

No. I have never been called transphobic other than by gender critical feminists on mumsnet

That isn't what I asked - did you genuinely think it was?

I asked whether you acknowledged that that viewpoint - whoever expressed it - has been called transphobic.

As a field of medicine/ psychology the concept of transness has existed about the same length of time as Autism has. About 100 years or so. It doesn't follow that it's a belief system.

I don't think my viewpoint would be likely to be considered transphobic no - other than by gender critical feminists on mumsnet.

No idea, all moving too fast! I am trying to be respectful of the rules.

Stating a personal belief with authority doesn't make it true, and doesn't compel others to treat it as truth. The only answer is tolerance and facilities accessible for all.

I've had the odd person occasionally deface questionnaires I've written - that's true. I've never been called transphobic by a trans person in real life or on reddit. It's true, however, that I don't tend to spend my time lecturing trans people on what it is to be trans. I mostly ask questions and listen.