J.K Rowling's Position

[middler]

I am not a regular on these boards but I am aware of the controversy over J K Rowling's position as I have encountered so many young people who have become very hostile with me if I do not show that I do not go along with them in their views that she is the equivalent of a racist in her attitude towards racists. I try and stay neutral and not declare my views but that is not enough for them. They want tos ee you express the same vitriol that they have so they can be assured you are on the same side. I find it so anti democratic frankly.

Privately I was relieved with the British ruling that means trans women who may well still have a penis and all the bad actors who could then take full advantage of a law that allowed transwomen into women only spaces, are not allowed to access those women spaces. I appreciate that most transwomen just want to go about leading their daily lives identifying as women and using women spaces is part of that and they have no ill intent. But many do not have bottom surgery and so yes they still have a penis as do the men who can just wake up one day and say they identify as a woman and start using those women only spaces and not have good intent? What am I missing? Why don't the younger generation see this and get that it is a huge risk to women? Do they think that there will be no bad actors? I just do not get it. The law is not to punish transwomen. It's to protect women.

I am not without sympathy for transwomen who genuinely feel uncomfortable going into male spaces. I appreciate that they identify as female but I just feel it's a conflict of rights and that you cannot sacrifice the right of women to feel safe in a women only space so that the smaller % of transwomen do not feel uncomfortable. Safety trumps comfort.

I personally would not react to a transwoman being in a female toilet but then I am aware how do I know it is a genuine transwoman and not a bad actor so I appreciate other women not being comfortable.
Maybe we need additional gender neutral toilets in this day and age.

But when this topic comes up with many younger people I can tell that the fact that I do not join in with the hatred for JK Rowling, that it puts me in the pro JK Rowling camp and I do agree with her support of ensuring that law got passed.

I am not so sure about the comments she made about kids not being trans as I think some kids as teens do seem to think they are in the wrong gender, maybe not in the large numbers that we are seeing today but clearly some people do feel they were born in the wrong gender and as a society I think we do have to support them without sacrificing the rights of an other group.

Rowling has never expressed hate for transpeople as far as I am aware. I do think she can be provocative in how she expressed her views and that is her choice but I just do not understand how the younger generation claim she is the equivalent of a racist but with trans rights? The language they use about her is so strong and I really try to avoid conversations about her because it has become so divisive- it is hard to find a millennial who does not agree with Emma Watson's viewpoint.

I am not 100% up to date with all Rowling has said but what has she said that is so bad that the younger generation have such deep hatred for her? I am just trying to understand it better and be ready to respond to the vitriol I get from younger colleagues when it comes up as it does seem to.

All we need is a "cis" and we will be right on track.

The young people trying to get others to disavow JK to prove their loyalty remind me of the hong wei bing. They too were convinced they were on the right side of history and utterly vicious while claiming to be morally righteous.

Please do say what living as a woman is.

Bingo pens at the ready.

But I am not ok with the law allowing transwomen and anyone who just decides they identify as a woman going into separate womens' space which are separate to ensure women are safer.

Well, we are all in agreement then. Job done!

Agree. Nothing more to be said.

Is this board an echo chamber or something? Did I come into the wrong board to ask my question?

Is it so inexplicable to you that someone can accept transpeople whilst also supporting the law having passed to ensure transwomen cannot access women only spaces? Or does everyone have to think exactly like you do to post in this board? I am genuinely curious, murasaki too, since you are twinning today.

No, we're good. No worries. Enjoy the rest of your day

JKR for Prime minister☺️☺️

I forgot Echo chamber. Bugger.

It's OK - you're in the right place. And welcome.👐🏼🙂

It's just that any mention of "genuine transwomen" is a red rag to a bull around these parts. 😬

You've already hit upon the key issue: there's no way of knowing.

Seriously though. That's all good with me.

This, basically.

Is it so inexplicable to you that someone can accept transpeople

What does "accepting transpeople" mean?

Seriously though. You forgot 'myprivatevitriol'. Add that one quickly before your sheet is full Alucard55.

Thank you DustyWindowsills

That's a different sheet. But thanks.

You could try asking them “Do you think that male people, who identify as women, most of whom have intact male genitalia, should be allowed to freely access spaces were women and girls are undressing and showing, even if those women object?”

Not at all, but to have the conversation you need to say what you think living as a woman is otherwise how can I possibly agree with you that some men do so?

A lot of the posters on here are pretty jaded from all the hate that’s been thrown at them by TRAs.

I have observed that there are people who demonstrate traits of being trans i.e. have a diagnosis of extreme gender dysphoria or are cross dressers ,or have AGP. These people go about their day and recognise reality and that their behaviour is on the outside of the range of normal.

Then there are trans people for whom being trans is their identity. They are obsessed with themselves, and they cannot function unless someone talks about their trans-ness. I heard someone say they were a "femme-presenting, non-binary female in a relationship with a masc-presenting non-binary male" - which is just a straight couple. This isn't Trans, but trying to fit in with a social movement I guess.

The first group recognises the issues for females and males being in the same space, and they recognise its their problem, but they shouldn't be sacked,denied service at a bar i.e. same human rights.

The second group are so obsessed with being trans or queer-what ever the fuck that means- that they cannot just have a conversation about the weather. They are then so vulnerable to predators who are using them to remove safeguards for females spaces.

Gender is a construct, therefore gender-identiy is also a construct i.e. not based in reality If you are male and have brain structures more commonly observed in females, it doesn't make you a female, it makes you a slightly different type of male, but you will still have the advantages of strength that come with sexual dimorphism in humans. Its like saying a man who has only had sex exclusively with females is gay because he likes musical theatre.

Yes this one is just a TRA in sheep's clothing. I will retract that if I actually get any answers to my quite reasonable question.

I am not so sure about the comments she made about kids not being trans as I think some kids as teens do seem to think they are in the wrong gender, maybe not in the large numbers that we are seeing today but clearly some people do feel they were born in the wrong gender and as a society I think we do have to support them without sacrificing the rights of an other group.

There are children who are distressed by their sex and we do have to support them but labeling them as 'trans' and affirming their belief that they are not the sex they were born does the opposite. Terrible harm has been done to children in the name of this ideology.

Without intervention, this distress about their sex almost always resolves by the time they've gone through puberty and the vast majority would simply grow up to be gay or lesbian and/or autistic. There is also a cohort whose distress stems from having been abused.

With intervention they can end up sterilised, with no sexual function, with a significant drop in IQ, with osteoporosis and a whole host of other lifelong medical conditions, with surgeries that never heal properly or stop hurting and that leave them incontinent, with permanent changes that can never be undone if they change their minds, and several years behind their peers in emotional and cognitive maturity.

'Trans kids' do affect the rights of those around them, most especially other children, but it's their own rights which are the major concern - the right to health, the right to not suffer harm at the hands of the medical profession, the right to grow up and go through puberty, the right to grow up gay.

Teenage presentation is a completely new thing, by the way. Until about 20 years ago the tiny number of children (almost always boys) distressed by their sex presented in very early childhood.

I think I would make a distinction between honest transwomen and genuine transwomen.

"Honest" transwomen I am pretty sure exist. Men who sincerely feel that they are in some way a woman.They are not deliberately deceiving anyone, unlike, say, a man who suddenly discovers his inner woman when a spell in a women's prison looks like a safer option than the men's.

"Genuine" transwomen would imply men who actually are in some way a woman. That's a whole other kettle of fish, and requires a definition of what a woman is (if it's not a person born bodily female); and a description of how somebody born bodily male gets from "I have these feelings" to giving his feelings the label "woman" rather than any other; and an explanation of why his self-diagnosis should be considered objectively valid.

"I do agree with her support of ensuring that law got passed."

You have referred a couple of times OP to a law being passed. The Supreme Court did not pass a law, they clarified what the law already was. Some of the upset has come from the fact that some trans people thought they had rights they did not, and acted accordingly. And many many organisations who should have known better didn't bother to check properly and went along with it, or knew better but decided to go with what they thought the law should be.

The "losses" - access to women's spaces, sports etc. were never actually theirs. For example, self ID never came into law, it never got past the discussion stage. Yet lots of organisations behaved as if it was the law and put policies in place to reflect that.

That is not JKR's fault - she has been clear this was unlawful. She did not lie to them about their rights. They should direct their bile at the organisations like Stonewall and Mermaids, who sold a reality that didn't exist. I imagine many individuals made choices based on what they erroneously thought the world would look like for them once those choices were made, and would have made different choice had they realised the truth.

Otherwise... lack of critical thinking skills, lack of life experience, blind unevidenced faith, instinct to distrust those with money, social devaluation of middle aged women, ability to indulge in luxury beliefs thanks to bubble of privilege.... there are many reasons.

My belief is most young people don't pay enough attention to the world outside of their personal bubble. Anything posted from an account that looks remotely official is repeated, verbatim, without individual thought or insight.

It isn't uncommon in this day & age sadly - actually, for all age groups, but especially the young. They parrot the beliefs of their peers from a place of privilege & safety, without comprehension of what is at stake. Those who have a reason not to trust men often don't feel able to speak up, much like other generations who know better.

JKR became a focus of hate because she stood up & said what most people already believed. Playing nice wasn't getting women anywhere, her famous face above the parapet made her public enemy no 1.

I have great admiration for every woman who has stood up to be counted on this issue, especially those who have become the target for hate & abuse.