Thinking about the troll threads

[HartSeven]

The troll-type threads that keep popping up, along with the sub-threads that attempt to derail other threads, are a bit of a puzzle. What is their purpose?

Obviously some are meant to annoy or disrupt and don't seem to have any other point. Those point-scorers (they wish) are never going to have much effect apart from being minor irritants, and anyway they give other Mumsnet users heaps of opportunities to set out basic arguments and enlighten possible new readers.

But I think there is something else going on, at least some of the time. There was a recent really long thread that was a lot sadder, once you ignored the absurdly patronising tone of the OP. It seemed to be trying to do three things. First, explain how sad a so-called "trans child" must feel about being their actual biological sex to elicit sympathy. Second, to use debating points and arguments to convince others that not only is dysphoria an innate, born-with condition in every case but there is just one permanent cure in the form of transition which always works and can be the real deal, so if you're sympathetic to the sad child you must agree. Third, to deal with disagreement by characterising it and any counter-arguments as based on irrational hostility and bigotry.

(1) got sympathy - sorry you're feeling sad but the best treatment is help to deal with reality (2) of course got nowhere as it wasn't, and could not be, backed up by evidence and reasoned argument. That always happens and always will. Activists can't persuade others through reason and evidence and they do know that. That thread was full of repeated assertion and attempts at emotional manipulation. So I reckon the real purpose of the thread is (3), when the arguments fail to persuade people, to make out that it's all because the other side are hateful bigots.

What's really sad then is that it seems to be about coming on here to prove to themselves and their supporters that everyone hates them. After the demise of "no debate", since they can't win debates or acknowledge other perspectives or rights, maybe this is the new strategy, to evoke disagreement so as to pretend it's all "hate".

There's an argument that it's worth responding to the ploppers, because not everybody on this thread has been here forever and has heard every f+ing thing the ploppers keep plopping🙄
I see that point.
I also understand that we have our tipping points, and sometimes you just can't resist posting a reply!
Having fun at their expense is a good option😃

I think they know they are losing. And losing big time. So they come on here with their DARVOing and gaslighting. They are desperate. They are erratic. They are unhinged. They are angry. Angry that the feminists are winning. They are so incredibly desperate to try to convince someone reading - someone, anyone, that feminists are wrong and they are right. They are doing a death burst. They are upset that females are human. And that females exist. And we have long established and long fought for sex-based rights.

It never even once, not once, occurred to them that women would defend their rights.

The more these misogynist MRAs lose, the more unhinged and angry and dangerously unstable they become. They are taking their dying gasps.

t never even once, not once, occurred to them that women would defend their rights.

this! They've only ever thought of woman as objects to be imitated, 2 dimensional things made of clothes and hair and a mad idea that women somehow have it 'easier'. They've never seen us as human, they still don't. It's as if service robots are rebelling

I agree with just about all these responses. And yes, the info about toilet safety is essential knowledge.
I usually find that as soon as I realise what kind of thread/post I'm looking at I don't bother reading very much, but I like a lot of the pithier replies they get and I appreciate women who do take the time and are extremely patient. The very long one the other day was an exception because I wondered if there was going to be a genuine attempt to explain the ever elusive concept of actually knowing what it feels like to be the opposite sex. It got danced around but of course no explanation of how it's possible.

I think the problem is that too many are willing to engage with this type of thread, as though somehow they will change the opinion of the poster, when clearly they wont, but is a sort of substitution to taking action in real life. (I made a comment on another thread that FWR seems to have become a virtual substitute and if it was our children getting caught up in this way, we would say you do know this isn't real.)

I think the other intention is to make FWR so repeititve and boring with threads that go on endlessly, that what was the value of FWR is seeping away.

Consequently threads are less well informed and more on a par with other SM platforms which are as much about venting a fixed view point and not much else.

I think the main losers are as a PP has said genuine newbies who get stomped on right from the start (which is some way is really puzzling as to why they they get the treatment the trolls should get).

And as happened on another thread where a woman asked for help.

In no time some came on to the thread to criticise her, her daughter, and others used it to start raising theoretical arguements when all she wanted was practical suggestions.

I think FWR has been gradually changing over the past year of so, but lately it seems more extreme.

And sadly the relabling of FWR by MNHQ as Sex and Gender has undereming the Feminist part because the title in the current context is an arguementative, confrontational one, and of course Feminism is far more than that.

But suspect it also means there are many more on this forum now who aren't particularly bothered about feminism, and what it means.

And without more women joining FWR with some feminist allegaince, as others move on becaue of the repetitiveness, this overall also impacts.

(edited for more than my usual number of typos)

Interestingly the OP of that McDonalds thread promptly posted a vitriolic attack on women (anti trans bla bla bla) which no doubt assisted MNHQ in realising that their thread was pure fantasy.

I genuinely feel sorry for some of these saddos. I cannot imagine being so lonely / isolated from society and so full of inner hatred to spend any time on a board with people I disapprove of. There's massive evidence of very poor mental health along with an inner fury fuelled by inadequacy and disappointment.

How as a society we help these people to walk back from their grandiose misogynistic notions that women and girls are their personal support humans I've no idea. They appear to completely lack the skills of social interaction, respect for others and empathy that are required to play a functioning role in society.

Yes, I can think of two prolific derailers who are different in communication style but IMO very similar in other ways. They each fixate on a notion that doesn't find favour here and repeat it ad nauseam, as if they think one more push will convert the unbelievers.

Such doggedness must surely have a purpose other than just to annoy us. I believe one of them has said they work in a field related to gender medicine. Perhaps both do, and they are desperate to believe they have been doing the right thing.

I like giving them life hacks and hygiene tips. It makes me feel like I am not so much mocking the afflicted as aiding them to improve their lives and social skills

I like this approach. I think I'd kind of been thinking that way, without really realising that I was thinking that way, for a while.

I do engage with some more interesting troll OPs because it's honestly been threads like these that have solidified my GC thinking, and I think they could do the same for lurkers. I really don't think anything makes GC arguments look more persuasive than seeing them set against the hyperbole, strawmanning, avoidance and insults of the other side. And every-so-often, something on one of these threads will make me really think, which gives me a chance just to make sure I'm considering other views, and work out and put across why I still don't agree with them, which may help to get someone else thinking about the counter-arguments, too.

But where they repeatedly interrupt other people's threads in a really offensively disingenuous way? That's a far tougher call. You want to reassert the painfully obvious to help the OP back on track, but you also know that feeding trolls gives them more energy... I try to get the balance right, but think I need to get a better balance...!

I find the issue of assuming bad intent really tricky, though. I recognise what people are saying upthread - incl. about just how bad the bad intent can be! - but also... some of these people come across as pretty young, immature and/or potentially vulnerable (that is, in a more meaningful sense than the "most vulnerable EH-va" cliché) - the emotional volatility, the immaturity of the language and argument, the lack of critical thought, and, yeah, lower literacy too on balance... So I also try to keep in mind that it could be a confused, hyper-emotional teen at the other end, kind of like I try to keep in mind IRL that the driver swearing at me straight after trying to kill me could be driving home from auntie's funeral. Like, it's vanishingly unlikely, but you never know? I think this can guard against the screen-shotting risks, too. Our strength is reason and empathy, and that includes for vulnerable, trans-identifying young people. It's good to highlight that.

It's not always easy, though. I mean, what I actually do after a close encounter with a crappy driver is find myself fuming for hours. A good counter-argument can dilute any frustration, but the dismissive and acerbic - and, like Marie says, definitely the witty - replies give some relief, too.

I mean, I guess the thing is, again, the different approaches (unlike the sameiness of many Interuptarons) show we're not an echo chamber, and that's also our strength?

It is sometimes beneficial to engage with the threads as new eyes are on them. Particularly, when there is a lot of activity and the threads end up on active.

Other times though, there feels like little benefit. But then, you do end up with very clear messages such as yesterday’s thread where we were told that one poster denied female people get distressed when having to accept a male person as a female person. That is depressing but it is also a useful understanding.

But more often than not this so called being active if just 2 or 3 posters who want to have the last word.

AS far as I can tell very few FWR end up on active, and am beginning to wonder how many are still on the forum compared to say a year let alone 5 years ago.

That's bluntly put what I wanted to say but thought I'd be deleted, glad your post has been allowed to stand so far Mollyollydolly.

I felt that poster was pure Sherpa material.

A lot of the threads being referred to are in AIBU, not FWR. Those are useful, however much they get trolled, because the unhinged lack of empathy of genderists for anyone else shines brightly.

Also there are often polls, and it’s clear that most people don’t support TRA demands.

Perhaps start the Good Loo Project and get yourself a crowd funder on the go. And no im not being sarcastic!

What cheeses me off is when one of our resident scolders deliberately derails a discussion, usually with some disingenuous fuckwittery. I like the "Do not interact with the interupteron" unicorn picture that gets posted on those occasions though, it helps newbies avoid wasting their time on those who aren't posting in good faith and reminds the trolls that we aren't playing their game.

I've kind of got a foot in both camps. I really believe that women should have safe spaces, but I also believe that some people can genuinely feel they should be a different sex from the one they are.

and I see so very similarities in the arguments between anti and pro trans activists. All the"they hate us" rhetoric is mirrored on each side.

and I know that my.opinion will go down like a lead balloon on here. But I think/hope we are all grown up enough to accept that others may feel differently from us and it's not a reason to attack an individual.

The reason why I think trans women come on to forums like this is not particularly goady. I think it because they were socialised as males, and socialised to believe their voice counted. And now they are somewhat confused, that their voice isn't being heard, and their opinion isn't the prevailing one.

I dont think the issue is about TW.

There seems to be an increasing number of threads now with the underlying theme that feminism is a false narrative, and it is just an excuse for victim hood.

This is why I mentioned earlier that I am not sure how "feminist" FWR is. there maybe the odd thread about feminism, but the overall context isn't.

ie some have a view either way on gender and sex which aren't based on any sort of feminism.

Another part of the problem is MNHQ enforcing, which no one asked for, that this issue, which however pressing certainly isn't the only issue for feminists, is somehow a niche side line.

Is it any wonder that some come on here thinking they can do what we experience as gate crashing in, but they think is a reponse to an open invitation.

I agree. I can see some people believe they are a different sex, some people believe the earth is flat, some people believe the moon landings were fake and some people believe the earth was created in seven days. I give them all the same level of credence. I don’t hate them. I just think they’re wrong. If someone does think they’re a different sex, that’s fine. They can wear what they want, call themselves what they want and lobe who they want. What they can’t do is force other people to go along with them, and appropriate facilities belonging to the sex they wish they were.

The reason why I think trans women come on to forums like this is not particularly goady. I think it because they were socialised as males, and socialised to believe their voice counted. And now they are somewhat confused, that their voice isn't being heard, and their opinion isn't the prevailing one.

I agree and disagree with this. I do think Some of our very regular visitors are definitely goady because they've been coming here for years and they know exactly what they're doing. I do think you're right about the puzzlement that they feel as men that women are openly disagreeing with them. In real life women are generally not as vehement with unknown men because we don't know how they'll react but here they can't intimidate us physically so we say what we think

From time-to-time we are asked if we ever feel sorry for for trans people and my honest answer is yes. I feel sorry for young people who have been lied to, for older people who weren’t able to express their true sexuality earlier, and for parents stuck between a rock and a hard place. But we must also be honest.

Lying isn’t support. Pretending people pass isn’t kind and whatever anyone’s issues, they have no right at all to prevent women seeking single sex spaces for their needs. I’ll start listening when I receive the same courtesy and when the ground rules are established. Women are not men’s support humans and men don’t get to give our rights away.

I think there's a fairly evident difference between someone genuinely wishing to engage and a familiar and well known poster groundhogging the exact same thread over again. Where the chosen lines are designed merely to provoke and to watch women run around again.

Those threads really are best ignored.

Agree, best ignored.

Useful idiot style, they sometimes show us how the TRA movement attempts to change the language around transactivism.
Very helpful for the lurkers, I reckon [waves to the lurkers, I was once like you, all Be Kind and wtf-ing at the cruel women rejecting the lovely lantern-jawed hulk who only wanted to pee]

The recent crop is all about the 'trans person' or 'trans people' - trying to obscure the sex of the person or people they are talking about (hint: always the be-penised kind) and 'those who rape us' - trying to force-team males who say they are women with actual original cunty women. I was told I was talking drivel for pointing this out .

That's a good point about their impotence at about not being able to physically intimidate the women on here. You feel they just want to shriek 'why won't you just shut up, bitch!!!' and watch women cowering away.

And despite the attempts at doxxing, the activist interns, the targeting of advertisers, the DDOS attacks and yes, the tedious reddit sorties, we're still here.

They're seething that we can't be made to shut up. That their male voices aren't the only ones being heard.