Thinking about the troll threads

[HartSeven]

The troll-type threads that keep popping up, along with the sub-threads that attempt to derail other threads, are a bit of a puzzle. What is their purpose?

Obviously some are meant to annoy or disrupt and don't seem to have any other point. Those point-scorers (they wish) are never going to have much effect apart from being minor irritants, and anyway they give other Mumsnet users heaps of opportunities to set out basic arguments and enlighten possible new readers.

But I think there is something else going on, at least some of the time. There was a recent really long thread that was a lot sadder, once you ignored the absurdly patronising tone of the OP. It seemed to be trying to do three things. First, explain how sad a so-called "trans child" must feel about being their actual biological sex to elicit sympathy. Second, to use debating points and arguments to convince others that not only is dysphoria an innate, born-with condition in every case but there is just one permanent cure in the form of transition which always works and can be the real deal, so if you're sympathetic to the sad child you must agree. Third, to deal with disagreement by characterising it and any counter-arguments as based on irrational hostility and bigotry.

(1) got sympathy - sorry you're feeling sad but the best treatment is help to deal with reality (2) of course got nowhere as it wasn't, and could not be, backed up by evidence and reasoned argument. That always happens and always will. Activists can't persuade others through reason and evidence and they do know that. That thread was full of repeated assertion and attempts at emotional manipulation. So I reckon the real purpose of the thread is (3), when the arguments fail to persuade people, to make out that it's all because the other side are hateful bigots.

What's really sad then is that it seems to be about coming on here to prove to themselves and their supporters that everyone hates them. After the demise of "no debate", since they can't win debates or acknowledge other perspectives or rights, maybe this is the new strategy, to evoke disagreement so as to pretend it's all "hate".

I think that must have been the period when I was just a reader. And it was a positive experience.

But the whole GRA consultation trickery made me join. The wake up call that even Government had been captured.

It’s not boring hearing you repeat information. There will be new people on some threads for whom it is new information. The repetition has helped me firm up my understanding of the issues. You should know your expertise is valued because people @ you in threads where they know you can provide relevant information or clarify a point.

And the recipes… not had those for a while.

I started using the FWR board (originally under a different user name) as a way of having discussions that I couldn't have elsewhere, with women who broadly felt as I did. It was also a way of finding out what was going on, as stuff often wasn't covered by the media, and also just to find some sanity and companionship, particularly in the darker days (esp pre-Forstater) when I think many of us were not and often could not be open about our GCness.

All of that AND the recipes (I've yet to try the Malay curry and wine liqueur recipes I've got stashed)/Tunnocks chat (teacakes for the win, I find the wafers a bit dry.)

On another thread I suggested and would like to do again, that you start your own thread (not to stop you posting on others), but so your information is easily able to find.

Then it is easy to refer to, and can be bumped, every now and again.

Although you might find you become the Toilet Agony Aunt.

There are probably other FWRers who have their own area of expertise, who could do the same.

And then also helps those of us less coherent able to link to!

Just a thought.

I second this, @Keeptoiletssafe
I reckon the whole set of issues around provision of adequate safe toilets is something MNHQ ought to consider supporting a campaign on. Apart from the obvious importance of single sex facilities, as a parenting site there should be a push for more sensible provision for families. It’s bizarre how few places like zoos and museums where there are loads of people with kids - often one parent with more than one in tow, not all of the same sex, have appropriate mixed sex/family loos.

Thank you. I have done that but they get lost because threads move on so quickly. I actually thought the Supreme Court ruling would be the end of my campaign (yeay) as it would lead to better single sex designs coming back.

However, I never knew toilet talk would then go stratospheric. All talk on the Supreme Court verdict turns to toilets at the moment. When people keep saying to enclose loos and make them private and mixed sex (to mimic the comfort of home), I feel duty-bound to tell them what this means design-wise and why mixed sex enclosed designs are dangerous to the medically vulnerable, women and children.

There is another reason I post too. I want to be challenged and to hear all views. I want everyone to be safe. I am aware ‘stories’ are just that. I take care to verify the stuff I talk about.

I reckon, with the exception of times when public toilets were introduced, as street fouling and sanitation was so bad it was causing widespread illness and death, toilets have never been talked about by so much, by so many in this country.

Do you post on any of the other boards, @Keeptoiletssafe? It seems to me that your information should be disseminated broadly. parenting, education (as schools are still problematic), disabilities etc. Like many of us, I suspect, I’d never properly thought about the safety aspects.

Thank you. Yes I do occasionally and have given my research to various bodies HSE, Department of Education, MPs etc. I work and am a mum so do this in my spare time.

If you have already done this work, just go to the thread and post bump, or problem still not solved or ...

I am sure it appearing in recently updated others will then see it and find it useful.

@keeptoiletssafe I've just remembered that I actually quoted you and your research in a real life conversation this week about school toilets!