Thinking about the troll threads

[HartSeven]

The troll-type threads that keep popping up, along with the sub-threads that attempt to derail other threads, are a bit of a puzzle. What is their purpose?

Obviously some are meant to annoy or disrupt and don't seem to have any other point. Those point-scorers (they wish) are never going to have much effect apart from being minor irritants, and anyway they give other Mumsnet users heaps of opportunities to set out basic arguments and enlighten possible new readers.

But I think there is something else going on, at least some of the time. There was a recent really long thread that was a lot sadder, once you ignored the absurdly patronising tone of the OP. It seemed to be trying to do three things. First, explain how sad a so-called "trans child" must feel about being their actual biological sex to elicit sympathy. Second, to use debating points and arguments to convince others that not only is dysphoria an innate, born-with condition in every case but there is just one permanent cure in the form of transition which always works and can be the real deal, so if you're sympathetic to the sad child you must agree. Third, to deal with disagreement by characterising it and any counter-arguments as based on irrational hostility and bigotry.

(1) got sympathy - sorry you're feeling sad but the best treatment is help to deal with reality (2) of course got nowhere as it wasn't, and could not be, backed up by evidence and reasoned argument. That always happens and always will. Activists can't persuade others through reason and evidence and they do know that. That thread was full of repeated assertion and attempts at emotional manipulation. So I reckon the real purpose of the thread is (3), when the arguments fail to persuade people, to make out that it's all because the other side are hateful bigots.

What's really sad then is that it seems to be about coming on here to prove to themselves and their supporters that everyone hates them. After the demise of "no debate", since they can't win debates or acknowledge other perspectives or rights, maybe this is the new strategy, to evoke disagreement so as to pretend it's all "hate".

Some of it is about entering a space that is used mostly be women and getting a reaction/ supply from those interactions - any reaction is welcomed, good or bad.

For some the more negative the reaction, the greater the pleasure...

I know. It’s all they’ve got. A comedian years ago used to do a very funny routine as an English tourist abroad, not speaking the local language, painstakingly repeating everything v e r y s l o o w l y when people couldn’t understand English. Then trying TALKING LOUDER. And T A L K I N G L O U D L Y A N D S L O O O O W L Y .

Transactivists remind me of that, though they’re not funny and usually get nasty pretty fast. They’ll never get through, because there’s nothing wrong with the listeners. It’s their talk that doesn’t make sense except to people like themselves.

Also allows comments to be taken out of context and reposted elsewhere. "Go away, we don't want to talk about that" meaning "don't detail this thread" can be taken as GC are no debate.

Never forget that the TRAs employ DARVO at any opportunity. Anything they do and say is often reflected back as GC behaviour.

Reviving old threads also prevents conversations continuing with new people, as often we don't click beyond the first page, assuming those are all older threads.

I agree, all disagreement is repackaged as hate.

Interesting questions OP and I agree there was an element of trying to generate proof of concept in that thread and others like it. Although I think the concept is "mumsnet is full of hateful bigots who are transphobic". Eta - which theoretically discredits any activism that emerges or is discussed here.

As @terryleather says there's also an element of posters getting supply from the threads, either to prove their superiority (intellect/compassion) or victimhood.

I have to admit I find them really irritating, so I suppose they do fulfill that purpose! But I also like how some posters will take the time to patiently explain or counter the arguments, not for the initiator of the thread but for anyone reading it who might be new to the discussion points.

I believe a few are to gain knowledge about single sex spaces arguments in order to counteract the arguments with employers etc.

For my part I always try to be as factual as possible and provide justifications and references.

If the Good Law Project researchers are on here, I know a lot about toilets but single sex ones with door gaps are better for everyone health and safety wise. Always willing to explain why.

Bit annoying I don’t get paid though - just do it as I know it will help to raise awareness for medically vulnerable people, women and children.

It’s also annoying when I try and debate that they ignore me :( and my arguments.

It also must be very boring for everyone else to hear me repeat everything. I bore myself going over the same ground. Health and safety isn’t that exciting but it’s a necessity.

I think the main thing they’re looking for is our attention, which is why I very rarely respond.

It's mainly a sortie from Reddit (one poster is notorious for this) to 'own' the terfs and gather out of context screenshots. It's always screenshots, never a link to a thread for obvious reasons. It's deeply tedious, particularly the 'ask questions' (but only the first 10) thread last night which was clearly populated by said poster and his pals on a day trip from the actual echo chamber.

It's a chance for men to scold women. It's misogyny distilled.

Not boring. Your contributions are invaluable and the reason your posts are studiously ignored by TRA's is because they are so difficult to refute.

I second that - absolutely not boring. I really admire your persistence, and have learned a huge amount from you, which I try to pass on when appropriate & relevant.

This. The midnight misogynist has a brand new bag.

Much of it now is merely poking women with the same tired old stupid provocations to watch them dance. Which is why it's so pointless; it's not discussion it's entertainment and keeping kleenex in business.

Definitely. There was a particularly weird post about underwear on last night's 'ask questions' nixed thread where I grimaced and thought 'urgh, 100%, that poster is definitely typing that with one hand'.

Totally agree. I feel sorry for the newbies who engage in good faith only to have questions ignored. I rarely respond other than to point out that it's purely for attention and that those hoping for good faith engagement won't get it

Yes, I absolutely agree that For some the more negative the reaction, the greater the pleasure... <boak>

I think that the women who have much stronger stomachs than me and engage with these mens’ posts deserve medals for their services to education and consciousness raising. And I also admire @Keeptoiletssafe’s persistence and unfailing focus. &

Did that actually exist? I thought I'd seen it this morning but then by lunchtime couldn't find it. I'm relieved I'm not dreaming up daft MN threads in my sleep.

Mostly, those sorts of threads are men telling feminist women we're wrong.

They cannot bear a space which is for & by women.

Definitely existed. I didn't catch it overnight but by the time I'd caught up with it this morning, it was then replaced with a 'we are looking behind the scenes on this one' message at about 10am (ish).

It was proper batshit. A mix of 'ask me questions and I'll answer the first 10' (though I think there was only about 4 answered) and Redditors seemingly determined to fill our bingo cards.

Humiliation kink is a thing!

What about the other side of troll threads. I reported one the other day about a Trans woman berating a child in McDonalds. It was obvious bullshit and was deleted. Do you believe those sort of threads?

no it was clearly nonsense.

butters/bee and his Reddit gang are constant visitors here with their repetitive threads, plopping one down and then not engaging for pages, coming back posting standard emotionally manipulative/endlessly debunked stats and then complaining that there are too many posts for them to engage with whilst finding the time to insult posters who call out their BS

I understand why long time users respond to the troll posts, and I get that it is helpful for lurkers, but it depresses me that some (like the one this morning) get SO much engagement, relative to the norm. I don't have the headspace or energy (and quite frankly, others express the arguments much better than I would) and so don't ever respond, but I do wonder whether, after initial good pushback, such threads could be quietly ignored. I do think there would be fewer of them if they didn't get attention.

This.

The thing is, they are easy to ignore when they start new threads. It’s the plopping on existing threads that we (and I’m as bad as everyone else) need to be more disciplined about ignoring.

Timmy might want attention but the grownups are talking.

What terry said.

I ignore them in the main, I'm not helping some fella have a w**k.
Sorry if that's blunt, but I've read enough to know what the motive is most likely to be.
And it's so bloody tedious.

I think some of it is "research" to try to better mimic women. Their back stories seem to evolve.