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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A little piece of insight

1000 replies

Tandora · 02/10/2025 13:48

Into a topic so woefully misunderstood.

A little piece of insight
OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Taztoy · 02/10/2025 15:33

Tandora · 02/10/2025 15:32

Well if you were online promoting ideas about how being gay is a mental illness, and gay people are all liars and fakers , and promoting legislation that criminalises gay sex, prohibits education about being gay in school , I might try to help you understand a little more about what being gay is.

If your response was "I don't care, I don't need to understand " , I would appreciate your honesty and be clear about where you stood.

I haven’t done any of those things. Not ever.

feel free to search my posts.

Igneococcus · 02/10/2025 15:35

Tandora · 02/10/2025 15:32

Well if you were online promoting ideas about how being gay is a mental illness, and gay people are all liars and fakers , and promoting legislation that criminalises gay sex, prohibits education about being gay in school , I might try to help you understand a little more about what being gay is.

If your response was "I don't care, I don't need to understand " , I would appreciate your honesty and be clear about where you stood.

Taz isn't doing that. This is a really underhanded way of arguing.

JazzyJelly · 02/10/2025 15:39

Men's distress at physical reality is not women's problem to solve.

eqpi4t2hbsnktd · 02/10/2025 15:40

This kind of thing just makes me more determined to be my genuine, real self. A triceratops.

OriginalUsername2 · 02/10/2025 15:45

Tandora · 02/10/2025 14:44

It's a helpful analogy - you don't need to understand the concept of schizophrenia to know that you are hearing voices. You don't need to have a medical degree to know that you have a pain in your gut. A child doesn't need to understand the concepts of sex/ gender/ transness to know what is hurting them. If a child is hurting, you help them.

That's the point the analogy is illustrating.

It's not to suggest that being trans is the same thing as being schizophrenic or that the treatments will be similar / the same.

Edited

Where were all these people 20 years ago? Because I was out and about all over the place and I saw approximately one man in women’s clothes quietly doing their shopping.

Rhetorical question.

CatHairEveryWhereNow · 02/10/2025 15:45

I was a bit of a misfit child and a bit bullied and often excluded by my "friends" and it was the in toy for that group and to me it was obvious that if I just had that toy I'd be fully accepted as one of the group.

It was clothes for MIL and seperately me - the right clothes not hand me downs or cheap one not quite right. Between us we made sure my kids have lots of the right clothes and kit- they are still ND and have at times still struggled socially.

I have sometime found male behavior in public spaces distressing to witness and endure often worse when young or by yourself yet any distress that causes is often dismissed as is need for single sex spaces to counter it as it's so
inconvenient and lets be honest the often unspoken part is that women are lesser beings and should just put up.

LarryIsMyRomanEmpire · 02/10/2025 15:46

Why is it that girls seem to discover their transness in their teens, but men in middle age, yet they apparently all knew since childhood.....?

PrizedPickledPopcorn · 02/10/2025 15:46

Tandora · 02/10/2025 14:39

Thank you for acknowledging that the distress is real. This is important.

The way to deal with that distress is not to compound it with pretence/medical treatment.

Giving someone a facsimile of what they want will never satisfy. It will never be quite enough. There will always be a feature that doesn’t quite look right, a glance or sharp word from a stranger that destroys your confidence- even if you’ve only imagined it- and something you can’t do because, you know, reality. Hence men trying to breastfeed, or claiming to have periods.

Beowulfa · 02/10/2025 15:46

Vastly improved mental health services for children/adolescents: yes please.

Aquiesing to toubled children's demands by promising their troubles can be magicked away: no thank you.

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 02/10/2025 15:48

Tandora · 02/10/2025 15:32

Well if you were online promoting ideas about how being gay is a mental illness, and gay people are all liars and fakers , and promoting legislation that criminalises gay sex, prohibits education about being gay in school , I might try to help you understand a little more about what being gay is.

If your response was "I don't care, I don't need to understand " , I would appreciate your honesty and be clear about where you stood.

Being gay has nothing to do with being trans though.

Helleofabore · 02/10/2025 15:49

Have we got any long term studies yet that show that affirming only medical treatment for children who describe having a transgender identity improves their outcomes in life?

Shortshriftandlethal · 02/10/2025 15:50

Tandora · 02/10/2025 14:44

It's a helpful analogy - you don't need to understand the concept of schizophrenia to know that you are hearing voices. You don't need to have a medical degree to know that you have a pain in your gut. A child doesn't need to understand the concepts of sex/ gender/ transness to know what is hurting them. If a child is hurting, you help them.

That's the point the analogy is illustrating.

It's not to suggest that being trans is the same thing as being schizophrenic or that the treatments will be similar / the same.

Edited

'Being trans' is not to be a discrete type of human being....it is a human being who for whatever reason feels or wants or desires to present as the opposite sex for emotional, psychological, or paraphillic reasons.

In the same way that an anorexic is not really fat ( the way they feel or imagine themselves to be). Both are psychological conditions. Only one of these conditions is nurtured as 'an identity' with foundations in reality, though

worksineducation · 02/10/2025 15:50

JazzyJelly · 02/10/2025 15:39

Men's distress at physical reality is not women's problem to solve.

This.

And women are full humans too so get to say 'no' to people who pose a threat to them in their private spaces. Women deserve safeguarding and single sex spaces is the main way of reducing the risk of male on female crimes against women in public spaces. ALL the statistics back this up.

Also, it's the law.

Men have 160% punch power of women no matter their inner feelings. 98% of sex crimes are by men (including men who id as trans where the rate of sexual offences among prisoners is even higher than other men).

The whole issue with this sort of 'poor person' narrative is that the women in the equation, who HAVE FEELINGS TOO including often feelings of trauma based on things male bodies have done, is totally ignored.

I'm so done with the perspective of women being sidelined and ignored.

Men who feel distressed by reality need mental health support to deal with reality and I'm totally behind providing that for them.

Women are not resources for sad men to use to make themselves feel better, being full human beings in their own right.

Taztoy · 02/10/2025 15:51

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 02/10/2025 15:48

Being gay has nothing to do with being trans though.

Yeah it’s a false equivalence. And doubly false because I have never said any of those things.

whatever anybody is, as long as it’s not boundary crossing, I don’t care. I have gay friends, non-binary friends, I’m bi. I also have Christian friends and Jewish friends and Muslim friends. I don’t care.

A trans person can present however they like. I don’t care.

but they’re are legally not allowed in the opposite sex’s single sex spaces. And it is that simple.

Shortshriftandlethal · 02/10/2025 15:54

Tandora · 02/10/2025 15:29

You help them by listening, getting the help they need

yes

and gently explaining to them that not everything in the world can be changed, made better or made to go away

Certainly. But some things can be made better and go away. Gender dysphoria is one of those things. That 6 year old is telling you exactly what is hurting them and how to make it go away- so do you hear them or not?

A 6 year old child has no conception of what would really help them with their distress. The job of a responsible adult is to hold that distress, explore it and contextualise it......not nurture its imaginings and fantasies further.

Lots of people with dysphoria say that once they have transitioned their dysphoria simply shifts to another body part or aspect of themselves.

Gay people are not claiming to be other than they are....which is people who are attracted to people of their own sex.

70sMuuMuu · 02/10/2025 15:57

Tandora · 02/10/2025 14:56

I believe the distress is real

Thank you.

A step further would be to reflect on the fact that while you have your theories about what causes the distress- they may just be that - your theories.

When we have theories to explain other people's experience, it's always really, really important to listen to those people who are actually having that experience and how they talk about / understand their own experience.

To impose explanations on other people's experience that contradict how those people understand their own experience is almost always dangerous and wrong headed. This is by no means something unique to this topic- it's a general principle of significant importance.

Edited

I agree you need to be very careful about imposing your theories on six year old children.

Shortshriftandlethal · 02/10/2025 15:58

LarryIsMyRomanEmpire · 02/10/2025 15:46

Why is it that girls seem to discover their transness in their teens, but men in middle age, yet they apparently all knew since childhood.....?

Those middle aged transitioners have usually been cross dressing since childhood...and are now framing that as " Having always known I was trans".

OuterSpaceCadet · 02/10/2025 16:00

Tandora · 02/10/2025 14:56

I believe the distress is real

Thank you.

A step further would be to reflect on the fact that while you have your theories about what causes the distress- they may just be that - your theories.

When we have theories to explain other people's experience, it's always really, really important to listen to those people who are actually having that experience and how they talk about / understand their own experience.

To impose explanations on other people's experience that contradict how those people understand their own experience is almost always dangerous and wrong headed. This is by no means something unique to this topic- it's a general principle of significant importance.

Edited

Sure.

But when, for example, my child comes home from school having been told "boys can't wear XYZ "/ "you must be a girl because you are wearing XYZ" (ie a traditional gender OR a gender ideology response to non-conforming) whilst I will validate their distress I am also going to locate the source of the distress firmly within the environment NOT within my child.

The ideas that "boys can't wear XYZ" or that "wearing XYZ means you're a girl" are also "just theories" after all. And I'm not going to let my child's unique sense of self and potential for physical health be scuppered by theories which are unnecessary and limiting.

It's not just transgenderism. Mental health diagnoses in general have a habit of locating the problem in the patient; neatly alleviating any responsibility from being held by the environment in which a person exists.

Helleofabore · 02/10/2025 16:01

Now that we have all read this person's emotional explanation as to how they perceive themselves, their 'insight', what are we expected to do with the knowledge of this person's situation?

Are we supposed to believe that any male can be a female person?
Are we supposed to feel enough emotional response to say 'any male person feeling like that most definitely should use female single sex provisions'?
Are we supposed to think, well the only option for a child with such distress is to support their belief that they are something that they materially are not and to start them on a medical treatment plan that provides hormones and maybe surgery (even as a child) to provide them with the extreme body modifications that might help them to feel better about themselves?

What are we supposed to be doing with this information?

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 02/10/2025 16:04

Tandora · 02/10/2025 14:56

I believe the distress is real

Thank you.

A step further would be to reflect on the fact that while you have your theories about what causes the distress- they may just be that - your theories.

When we have theories to explain other people's experience, it's always really, really important to listen to those people who are actually having that experience and how they talk about / understand their own experience.

To impose explanations on other people's experience that contradict how those people understand their own experience is almost always dangerous and wrong headed. This is by no means something unique to this topic- it's a general principle of significant importance.

Edited

To impose explanations on other people's experience that contradict how those people understand their own experience is almost always dangerous and wrong headed. This is by no means something unique to this topic- it's a general principle of significant importance.

Don't agree. There are many people who interpret their own experience and look at the world in ways that are totally at variance with the facts.

In some cases this is the result of mental illness - e.g. people with schizophrenia who hear voices or develop the fixed belief that they are Napoleon; people with eating disorders whose body image is disordered; people with body dysmorphia who become convinced that a part of their body is huge and disfigured, when everyone else can see that it's perfectly normal, or who believe that (say) their left leg is not really theirs and should be cut off. People in this position need help from appropriately trained and experienced mental health practitioners. What they don't need is other people agreeing with them.

There are others who develop a fixed belief for reasons that are very difficult to understand, but may be wish fulfilment and/or limited intelligence (emotional or otherwise) - e.g. the world is flat; identifying as a member of a different ethnic group or as a much younger person or a furry. They are free to believe and roleplay whatever they like but they can't force the rest of us to go along with it.

Part of growing up healthy in mind as well as body is learning to know and accept reality, no matter how horrible it is. What a child with gender dysphoria needs from the adults in her or his life is kindness but also to be told the truth: nobody can change sex. The various medical procedures on offer won't achieve that and will necessitate lifelong treatment which often has adverse effects on quality of life, physical and mental health, fertility, sexual response and life expectancy.

A young child can't understand much of that, but should get skilled and sensitive help to work through the key questions: you are a [boy/girl] and you will grow up to be a [man/woman]. What is it about being a [boy/girl] or growing up to be a [man/woman] that is making you so unhappy? What can we do about that?

The parents and guardians need that help as well. So many case histories of dysphoric children mention parents who can't accept a gender nonconforming child, homophobia at home or in the local community, a parent who always wanted a child of the opposite sex, parents who seek help and are told (and in their frantic worry accept) that what a distressed child says must be taken literally - in this one instance.

Tandora · 02/10/2025 16:05

OuterSpaceCadet · 02/10/2025 16:00

Sure.

But when, for example, my child comes home from school having been told "boys can't wear XYZ "/ "you must be a girl because you are wearing XYZ" (ie a traditional gender OR a gender ideology response to non-conforming) whilst I will validate their distress I am also going to locate the source of the distress firmly within the environment NOT within my child.

The ideas that "boys can't wear XYZ" or that "wearing XYZ means you're a girl" are also "just theories" after all. And I'm not going to let my child's unique sense of self and potential for physical health be scuppered by theories which are unnecessary and limiting.

It's not just transgenderism. Mental health diagnoses in general have a habit of locating the problem in the patient; neatly alleviating any responsibility from being held by the environment in which a person exists.

this exactly the sort of misunderstanding about what it is to be trans that I am trying to correct.

Its really got nothing at all to do with stereotypes or clothes.

OP posts:
OuterSpaceCadet · 02/10/2025 16:07

Do you correct the adults in schools who teach children that it is almost entirely about stereotypes and clothes?

Tandora · 02/10/2025 16:10

Shortshriftandlethal · 02/10/2025 15:54

A 6 year old child has no conception of what would really help them with their distress. The job of a responsible adult is to hold that distress, explore it and contextualise it......not nurture its imaginings and fantasies further.

Lots of people with dysphoria say that once they have transitioned their dysphoria simply shifts to another body part or aspect of themselves.

Gay people are not claiming to be other than they are....which is people who are attracted to people of their own sex.

Edited

A 6 year old child has no conception of what would really help them with their distress.

They know that when you call them a boy it cause them visceral and intense pain. They know that when you call them a girl it relieves that pain. This is the reality of their experience. I'm so sorry that you can't hear this. If it were your child , more likely you would.

Gay people are not claiming to be other than they are....which is people who are attracted to people of their own sex.

But this is exactly what homophobic people think they are doing!
they believe ( / we used to believe) that Being gay is an "ideology" - the language of calling someone "gay" is rejected in favour of a person experiencing "same sex attraction" - a temporary, deluded state of mental illness that can be cured through reinforcing real/ natural / healthy social/ reproductive roles, based in biology.

OP posts:
MyAmpleSheep · 02/10/2025 16:11

Tandora · 02/10/2025 14:39

Thank you for acknowledging that the distress is real. This is important.

Is the distress felt by women finding men in their single-sex spaces real, too?

MyAmpleSheep · 02/10/2025 16:12

Tandora · 02/10/2025 16:05

this exactly the sort of misunderstanding about what it is to be trans that I am trying to correct.

Its really got nothing at all to do with stereotypes or clothes.

Its really got nothing at all to do with stereotypes or clothes.

For a very large number of middle-aged men claiming to be women, it really is all about stereotypes and clothes.

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