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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #54

1000 replies

nauticant · 28/09/2025 18:51

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to: [email protected].

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 from 3 September

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29
PrettyDamnCosmic · 19/11/2025 16:32

EsmeShelby · 19/11/2025 15:14

Reckon Carol is 56 or thereabouts. She will be able to get her 1995 NHS Scheme pension from 60, she'll be able to get that early but it will come at a a penalty. But that was shut a few years ago and the 20152022 scheme is tied to the pension age, so she won't get that until 67.

You don't have to wait until you are 67 as you can take your pension early from the 2015 pension scheme but there will be an actuarial reduction. It's meant to be neutral in terms of the total pension you receive during your retirement.

WearyAuldWumman · 19/11/2025 17:44

Can’t manage to link on my phone, but the Daily Record reports that a supervisor in a Fife hospital has been found guilty of sexual harassment. According to social media, he’s also the local Unison rep. (He lives in Kinross rather than Fife.)

Not going well at NHS Fife.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 19/11/2025 17:46

NHSFife's next Board Meeting is at 10am next Tuesday 25 November

I believe members of the public have to let them know in advance and attend in person to observe. Can anyone local pop along if we get the decision before then? 😁

Papers here:
www.nhsfife.org/media/mjco43db/boardbook-fife-nhs-board-dated-25-november-2025.pdf

SirChenjins · 19/11/2025 17:52

TriesNotToBeCynical · 19/11/2025 16:18

Before 1995, age 60 was certainly the age you could take a full pension, but the pension rules have been changed multiple times since.

Yes, sadly the days of retiring at 60 on a full pension are long gone for us in the NHS!

DrPrunesqualer · 19/11/2025 17:53

WearyAuldWumman · 19/11/2025 17:44

Can’t manage to link on my phone, but the Daily Record reports that a supervisor in a Fife hospital has been found guilty of sexual harassment. According to social media, he’s also the local Unison rep. (He lives in Kinross rather than Fife.)

Not going well at NHS Fife.

A former NHS Fife catering supervisor,
William Freeman, was found guilty of sexually motivated harassment and placed on the sex offenders register for repeatedly assaulting a female colleague between January 2022 and January 2025

William Freeman, 47, was a catering supervisor at an NHS Fife hospital when he carried out a three-year campaign of abuse against a 53-year-old female colleague who cannot be named for legal reasons

The victim reported feeling "very anxious" and "incredibly uncomfortable" as a result of the ongoing harassment. Colleagues gave evidence in court, describing the victim as "distraught" after incidents.

Sheriff Tim Niven-Smith found the victim to be a credible witness and concluded that Freeman's conduct was sexual, noting that he was in a position of authority. Freeman was ordered to carry out 200 hours of unpaid work and was placed on the sex offenders register for five years.
He was also suspended from his post within the NHS and expected to be dismissed following an internal hearing

NebulousSupportPostcard · 19/11/2025 17:56

Excerpts from September Board minutes:

Well Informed: Communication Update
...Notable trends in the report were highlighted including a 62% rise in national media enquiries largely influenced by the ongoing highly publicised Employment Tribunal, an 11.8% increase in traffic to Service web pages and an 88% increase in Instagram engagement. The Director of Planning & Transformation encouraged the Committee to focus on the strength of the social media monitoring process, which is aligned with the Board’s equality, diversity, and inclusion standards, rather than on specific media content.

Corporate Risk Register

...EDI is also a strong focus for the Board and further consideration is being given as to whether a new risk is required to be added to the Corporate Risk Register.

FannyCann · 19/11/2025 18:36

The Director of Planning & Transformation encouraged the Committee to focus on the strength of the social media monitoring process,

Do they mean monitoring their own social media pages and public comments made eg on X or are they referring to something more sinister like monitoring staff social media use?

RedToothBrush · 19/11/2025 18:45

EDI is also a strong focus for the Board and further consideration is being given as to whether a new risk is required to be added to the Corporate Risk Register

Oh shit moment. Where you realise that you probably should have done an impact assessment before rolling out your bullshit EDI policies that interfere with normal HR policies.

This is also a subject for discussion in other NHS Trusts across the country as the memo has now been sent thanks to women not staying in line with the idea that they don't litigate but men do....

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 19/11/2025 18:49

RedToothBrush · 19/11/2025 18:45

EDI is also a strong focus for the Board and further consideration is being given as to whether a new risk is required to be added to the Corporate Risk Register

Oh shit moment. Where you realise that you probably should have done an impact assessment before rolling out your bullshit EDI policies that interfere with normal HR policies.

This is also a subject for discussion in other NHS Trusts across the country as the memo has now been sent thanks to women not staying in line with the idea that they don't litigate but men do....

But none of the other trusts have done any impact assessments - so what is IB going to copy and paste?

RedToothBrush · 19/11/2025 18:57

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 19/11/2025 18:49

But none of the other trusts have done any impact assessments - so what is IB going to copy and paste?

Well I hope she was paying attention to this article from yesterday
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8drzv37z4jo

And don't just C/P off AI....

Maybe she will have to do some actual work.

A young female student seen from above interacts with an AI chatbot on a smartphone while studying at a desk with a laptop, notes and stationery. The scene highlights modern learning and technology integration.

Don't blindly trust what AI tells you, Google boss tells BBC

Sundar Pichai candidly acknowledged concerns about inaccurate answers generated by Google's models.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8drzv37z4jo

Hoardasurass · 19/11/2025 19:17

NebulousSupportPostcard · 19/11/2025 17:46

NHSFife's next Board Meeting is at 10am next Tuesday 25 November

I believe members of the public have to let them know in advance and attend in person to observe. Can anyone local pop along if we get the decision before then? 😁

Papers here:
www.nhsfife.org/media/mjco43db/boardbook-fife-nhs-board-dated-25-november-2025.pdf

There's 565 pages in that link can you summarise what it says (if you've read it) please

Hoardasurass · 19/11/2025 19:21

FannyCann · 19/11/2025 18:36

The Director of Planning & Transformation encouraged the Committee to focus on the strength of the social media monitoring process,

Do they mean monitoring their own social media pages and public comments made eg on X or are they referring to something more sinister like monitoring staff social media use?

Both and the general public who are mentioning them and/or sandie Peggie according to foi by 1 of the papers (i think it was the express but could have been the courier)

NebulousSupportPostcard · 19/11/2025 19:35

FannyCann · 19/11/2025 18:36

The Director of Planning & Transformation encouraged the Committee to focus on the strength of the social media monitoring process,

Do they mean monitoring their own social media pages and public comments made eg on X or are they referring to something more sinister like monitoring staff social media use?

I think they are asking the Board to set aside the issues around the media furore and focus on the ability of the beancounters to report how many hits on the website etc because of the media furore.

Reminds me of the hypnotist Kenny Craig in Little Britain: "Look into my eyes, look into my eyes, the eyes, the eyes, not around the eyes, don't look around my eyes, look into my eyes, you're under. We did not make ourselves a laughing stock by reissuing a damning memo 6 times in one weekend. We sucessfully managed an entirely coincidental 88% increase in Instagram engagement. Okay you're back in the room."

Itmakesme · 19/11/2025 20:09

NebulousSupportPostcard · 19/11/2025 19:35

I think they are asking the Board to set aside the issues around the media furore and focus on the ability of the beancounters to report how many hits on the website etc because of the media furore.

Reminds me of the hypnotist Kenny Craig in Little Britain: "Look into my eyes, look into my eyes, the eyes, the eyes, not around the eyes, don't look around my eyes, look into my eyes, you're under. We did not make ourselves a laughing stock by reissuing a damning memo 6 times in one weekend. We sucessfully managed an entirely coincidental 88% increase in Instagram engagement. Okay you're back in the room."

Love this

Itmakesme · 19/11/2025 20:12

RedToothBrush · 19/11/2025 14:56

Hmmm well this is interesting...

The Christian religious education (RE) taught in schools in Northern Ireland is unlawful, the UK Supreme Court has ruled.

The Supreme Court is the UK's highest court.

In a unanimous judgement the Supreme Court allowed an appeal by an unnamed father and daughter from Northern Ireland.

In 2022, the High Court in Belfast ruled that the Christian-based religious education (RE) taught at primary schools in Northern Ireland was unlawful.

However, the Department of Education (DE) subsequently won an appeal against that judgement.

But on Wednesday the Supreme Court unanimously allowed the father and daughter's subsequent appeal and dismissed the Department's cross-appeal.

And

The legal action was taken by a young girl who attended a Belfast primary school and her father. The family took the case anonymously.

In her state-controlled school, the girl had received non-denominational Christian religious education and took part in Christian worship.

However, her parents did not wish her to be taught that Christianity was an absolute truth and in 2019 they wrote to the school voicing concerns that it did not conform with their own beliefs.

The family asked if inspection mechanisms were in place to ensure that pupils were receiving a balanced religious education.

The school replied that its religious education was “Bible-based” and followed the core syllabus for education.

The family argued that their rights - which requires the State providing education to “respect the right of parents to ensure such education is in conformity with their own religious and philosophical convictions" - had been contravened.

And

The family’s solicitor, Darragh Mackin from Phoenix Law, described the Supreme Court’s unanimous ruling as a “watershed moment” for education rights in Northern Ireland.

“The Supreme Court has confirmed that all children are entitled to an education that respects their freedom of thought, conscience, and religion,” he said.

Mr Mackin said the judgement means that schools cannot place children in the “impossible position of being singled out or stigmatised” because they do not share the religious worldview in the school curriculum.

Watch this space.

I haven't read into it - but how does that sit with the fact the Equality Commission have said that For Women Scotland SC Judgment doesn't apply in NI?

Cismyfatarse · 19/11/2025 20:14

Waiting…….Tomorrow do you think?

NoBinturongsHereMate · 19/11/2025 20:47

SirChenjins · 19/11/2025 14:47

Not sure that's strictly true is it? I've been with NHSS for 32 years, paid into my NHS pension since the start, but 60 isn't the normal retirement age - I'd lose a chunk if I took it then.

Normal pension age for the 1995 section is 60 (55 for some nurses), with an earliest possible retirement age of 50 or 55 depending on yourn start date.

For the 2008 section it's 65 for normal age, and 55 for earliest age.

For the 2015 the normal age is whatever your state pension age is, and the minimum is 55 - soon to go up to normal age-10 years.

Pension accrued since March 2022 is in the 2015 section for everyone. Pension accrued before April 2015 will be in either the 1995 or 2008 depending on start date and Choice 1/Choice 2 decisions. And most people who are in 2 sections can choose whether the middle part goes into the earlier or later version.

27pilates · 19/11/2025 20:47

@SirChenjinsif you’ve been in the NHS with unbroken service for 32 years, (assuming this is calendar length service not reckonable). 29 years will be in the 1995 scheme and 3 years in the 2015 scheme. The 1995 scheme’s normal pension age is definitely 60; that is why so many long service NHS staff retire and return or partially retire at 60.
NB 2015 scheme really should be renamed the 2022 scheme post McCloud. Anyway, crucial point is don’t
delay taking the 1995 part of your NHS pension at 60 or you’ll lose those
month payments permanently.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 19/11/2025 21:08

Itmakesme · 19/11/2025 20:12

I haven't read into it - but how does that sit with the fact the Equality Commission have said that For Women Scotland SC Judgment doesn't apply in NI?

That came up in discussions over lunch during the Sara Morrison/Belfast Film Festival case today. Sara's solicitor was at the table and firmly said he wouldn't venture a legal opinion unless he was being paid for it. I considered offering him a pack of biscuits but thought that probably wouldn't get me very far, even if they were Biscoff creams.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 19/11/2025 21:16

27pilates · 19/11/2025 20:47

@SirChenjinsif you’ve been in the NHS with unbroken service for 32 years, (assuming this is calendar length service not reckonable). 29 years will be in the 1995 scheme and 3 years in the 2015 scheme. The 1995 scheme’s normal pension age is definitely 60; that is why so many long service NHS staff retire and return or partially retire at 60.
NB 2015 scheme really should be renamed the 2022 scheme post McCloud. Anyway, crucial point is don’t
delay taking the 1995 part of your NHS pension at 60 or you’ll lose those
month payments permanently.

Assuming, of course, no move to the 2008 in Choice 1.

prh47bridge · 19/11/2025 21:37

Itmakesme · 19/11/2025 20:12

I haven't read into it - but how does that sit with the fact the Equality Commission have said that For Women Scotland SC Judgment doesn't apply in NI?

The Equality Act does not apply in Northern Ireland, which is why FWS doesn't apply there. The judgement on religious education was based on the ECHR, not the Equality Act.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 19/11/2025 21:48

By the way, is there any reason to think the NHS will not follow their usual practice of promoting Ms Potter, or moving her sideways to another Trust? Having to resign for unfortunate reasons is not usually an impediment to this process. Assuming she will retire may well be premature.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 19/11/2025 22:41

Hoardasurass · 19/11/2025 19:17

There's 565 pages in that link can you summarise what it says (if you've read it) please

Main Board Papers include minutes and current updates/proposals from all subcommittees across the organisation. I just Ctrl + F'd my way through a few relevant keywords and added a second post below the QT but obvs didn't/can't/wouldn't read or summarise the entire bundle.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 19/11/2025 22:48

TriesNotToBeCynical · 19/11/2025 21:48

By the way, is there any reason to think the NHS will not follow their usual practice of promoting Ms Potter, or moving her sideways to another Trust? Having to resign for unfortunate reasons is not usually an impediment to this process. Assuming she will retire may well be premature.

There isn't really one single NHS corporate body that could promote or redeploy a CEO to another Trust. She will likelyly have friends in high places who may help her find another niche. Given that the SC judgement still has to be practically implemented across most of the NHS and public sector, and that Fife has been a lesson in How Not To Do Things, it's hard to see how Potter could find another niche in the NHS. But CEOs don't tend to stick to a single sector, so she'll be just fine.

MyAmpleSheep · 20/11/2025 00:00

She's going to set up a consultancy advising other NHS Trusts and similar public sector organizations how to comply with their sex-based equality requirements. After all she's now an expert, with real-world experience. Betcha. Frankly, win or lose, the SP tribunal could well be the best thing that ever happened for her career.

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