NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #54

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to: [email protected].

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 from 3 September

Can you carry around a trowel and bury the bog paper in the woods? It will biodegrade. Eventually.

I once went on a hiking holiday using huts that were equipped with a spade. When you felt the need, you would go for a solitary walk with the spade and a bog roll. And just hope you wouldn't end up digging in the same spot somebody had chosen a couple of weeks earlier. 💩🧻🤢

Nonsense, isn't it? Non-binary men have the same height requirement as binary men. Non-binary women can't use a urinal unless they've had genital surgery to be more 'male' than 'non-binary' (and the surgery has actually worked, which it rarely does); or are using a funnel to pretend to be more male, in which case they could just not. Or pretend they are Germa/Swiss men, who are much more lilkely to sitzpinkel.

Those who worry about urinal heights for non-binary people seem to have temporarily forgotten about the rather more prevalent needs of boys.

Easier to just use the loos. I got the message across when I pregnant. We tend now to have a compromise distance. It was just an observation that men don't value an actual physical porcelain (or plastic) place in the same way women do.

For those interested, here is one of the paragraphs:

‘It should be noted that male crotch height, while likely to encompass a majority of urinal users, does not necessarily account for the height of trans and non-binary users, or people who have undergone gender reassignment surgery.There is no large-scale anthropometric study indicating the anthropometric dimensions of trans and non-binary groups, or the prevalence of use of urinals for these groups. It is not sufficient to recommend a lower standard urinal height to accommodate all people regardless of sex and gender, as a height that is too low is not optimal and presents barriers in use.’

It beggars belief that many, many paragraphs were given up to crotch heights when nothing was written about the most common longterm health conditions where design could save lives. For instance, they ignored millions of people with heart conditions (heart attacks and also strokes happen every 5 mins in this country). Symptoms prior to these medical emergencies mean many people end up going to the toilet.

If their remit had been to investigate barriers for people who want to use public toilets and urinals that were designed for the opposite sex, that would been appropriate (although that’s never been applicable for this country). Long term health conditions was their remit.

It's infuriating reading this sort of bollix, KTS. Can they hear themselves, the solipsistic fuckwits? The thought that views like this are driving public policy is deeply depressing.

In most public loos you will find a line of urinals at the same height with one at a lower height on the end for use by boys.

The number of women's loos I've been in where you struggle to find room for yourself in the cubicle so that you can close the door behind you... If I were a wee bit fatter, had a heavy coat or a child with me. Having a hook to put your bag or coat on because the floors are unhygienic.

I think the place where TE Lawrence (of Arabia) lived, now NT, lacked a toilet. Guests were given a shovel and instructions to be out of sight of the windows.

It’s so frustrating. The thing is my priority is safe toilets for everyone. Is doesn’t matter how you identify, single sex toilets with door gaps mean you can be seen and heard if there’s a problem. BUT practically it means the area in front of the cubicles should be single sex too, otherwise the gaps go.

I don’t normally mention individual stories but relevant to this thread is one where a hospital doctor died in a toilet within a male changing room which sounds like a similar set up. They were concerned for him but waited a while as they couldn’t tell if he was ok until they broke the door down but cpr was unsuccessful. This is why getting legislation and building regs right is so important. The toilet design should have a floor to door gap and a quick turn lock and a door that has hinges to be altered to open outwards.

My husband's uncle died in hospital after falling against the toilet door. He'd just had heart surgery and while we don't know if he could have been saved at the time, no one could get to him.

Yes, which makes it more farcical. Dh says the long trough ones are bad as they get blocked up. You get back-splash of everyone’s wee as you are weeing into a stagnant ‘piscine’!

I am so sorry for this. I know so many stories like this and I have written to Wes Streeting. Now there seems to be a commitment to single sex wards, I have urged him to consider safer toilet design.

Edit: given the number of assaults in hospitals uncovered by WRN I have also asked him to consider this.

Exactly. The aforementioned consultees seem to be worrying unnecessarily.
Edit: their special people seem to be already catered for.

In the 1980s, I worked in a new build Scottish high school.

I had to go to the SLT to complain that there were no sanitary bins in the staff women's toilets. Once the bins went in, there was scarcely any room to manoeuvre.

I recall forcing myself to speak to a male Assistant Rector to explain that not all women used 'flushable' tampons.

I went back to do a teeny bit of supply a couple of years ago. Same toilets. Only one cubicle had a bin by then. (However, I believe that staff had been given the go-ahead to use the single unisex loos on other floors.)

I'm now post-menopausal, of course, so I didn't check out whether the unisex loos had bins.

They do in the stroke wards in hospital. (I had a relative in a rehab ward and helped with toileting when I visited.)

Minging.
Years ago I worked in a stadium, based opposite the men's loos, nice!
The number of men who'd walk out doing themselves up was crazy, clearly no hand washing involved.

The pram causes arguments, if you use disabled.
But for a dementia patients 100% use the disabled loos. They deserve to keep their dignity as long as possible Assistance is part of the reasons disabled loos are bigger.

Go to any of the less frequented bird reserves and it's rare for a day to pass without seeing a bloke having a slash within sight of the hides. And, from the smell, in the hides.

Apart from anything else the nutrients added by alfresco toileting can be really harmful to fragile ecosystems.

😳🤮

Ah you need urine deflectors. Bank of England has some historic ones. Men corroding London, particularly a problem around Westminster according to the history books.
https://londonist.com/london/secret/urine-deflectors

wazzbaffle 😂

I know you can get special paint that's supposed to make it splash back onto the offender but I don't know how successful that is.

I can stop seeing wazzbafflers round the city now!

Toilets when you've got luggage with you are a nightmare, especially if the door opens inwards.

Having recently acquired a new baby, can confirm that this is another area where the unisex toilet cubicle falls down.

Was in a local chain coffee shop recently that has a bunch of unisex cubicles (with self contained sink) that opened onto a sort of toilet corridor. Tried to use them with baby in pram. Pram (and I have basically the tiniest model available) won't go into the cubicle - can't shut the door.

If it was single sex loos, would probably have used the one at the end with the pram blocking the door. But in a mixed sex environment, no way.

There was a disabled loo that might have had a baby change shelf etc, but you had to ask staff for the key so I didn't bother.

I was in a women's loo the other day (bog-standard type, no pun intended) and the cubicles were so small I could barely edge round the door and into the cubicle with just my average-sized body and no baby or big bags. The sink area wasn't correspondingly tiny, they could have added a bit extra to each cubicle. Who designs these things?