Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal 29th September 10am

[ickky]

Hello

Don't know much about this case other than Naomi Cunningham is representing Ms Kelly.

If you want to observe send an email to

[email protected]

Subject line

Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Anyone interested?

Sad times…

Sound is hard to follow, but this will be very a very interesting case.

From TT

J - does everyone have power and seats?
all - yes
J - any other issues?
No
J - will ask C to come up now.
Oath taken.
J - council has said she will use Trans ID man and I will be taking notes
NC - nmae
MK - Maria Kelly, work for L in Edinburgh

NC - what is your job
MK - now? capability lead, I'm an engineer myself, I look at training and development and tech developmet.
NC - some qu on gender. What is your understanding of sex.
MK - it's sex, if born M you are m, if F you are F
NC - can you change
MK - no

From TT

NC - how can you tell someones sex
MK - I think women are beter at this from an evolutionary point of view, you can tell from across the room.
NC - how difficult is it to tell a gender identity
MK - might be able to give it a go, flags indicate GI maybe, we are all in trousers

This is so different and so clear without an Upton having excessively complicated things.

From TT

MK - but your sex is your sex
NC -
MK - about 10-15 years ago a discussion about bathrooms in the US never occured to me that men would be in womens toilets. It's pretty damned imp to me.
NC - can you explain why
MK - my role, worked and studied in v male env 10% female engineers

Oh no... another woman is having to discuss her trauma to justify her need for single sex spaces.

From TT

MK - toilets are a refuge, for peace or to cry. eg in a pub/nightclub they are a place to escape people. It's more than somewhere to go to the toilet. It's not unusual, friends agree on how we use toilets this way.
NC - anything in your history that contribs to these feelings

This really annoys me, the claimant shouldn't have to reveal personal trauma to legitimise her permission to expect a SSS.

MK - might be able to give it a go, flags indicate GI maybe, we are all in trousers

Or a hulking great bloke in a frilly dress, tights and heels in the middle of winter when everyone else is wearing trousers and boots is also a bit of a give away.

Oh I hate how women have to share their trauma in these cases

From TT

MK - in the 3rd year of my degree, 2 courses, ....there was a man I smiled at in passing, followed me into library toilets. It was an eng uni, not many women, they guy was large, 6ft something followed me in. Thought he was lost. Women have experienced this, mistake? Lost?

She's in tears. I just want to hug her right now. Poor woman having to go through all this crap

Oh Chrst I hate this. Fcking b*stard men (not all.don't start, lurkers).

Exactly. Her saying ‘no’ is reason enough.

Maria Kelly breaking down while telling about an incident that happened to her when a man followed her into the women's toilet and the feelings she had then. And obviously still feels it.

This was from her third year at university... This lives with people for so long.

(also, sorry I tried to asterisk words that I dont want reported and asterisks have something to do with making boldened letters)

From TT

Do i risk upsetting him? I made a joke of it, asked if lost, decided nott o hide in cubicle. Said he shouldn't be in there, etc. He realised I didn't want him in there, I didn't scream, but it was the first time I really felt trapped in that sort of space.

This is heartbreaking.

From TT

MK - It's a place of refuge. The first time you have a bad expeirenced, followed in street, groped etc you learn. THat was an eye opener.
NC - anything else
MK - i was aware from a young age,
J - please repeat
MK - young age I was aware my mum was sexually abused and physically

No-one should have to go through this to be allowed safety in a single sex toilet. Leonardo UK, you deserve every bit of bad publicity and more.

From TT

MK - I grew up in a family where women were aware, also have friends who have been raped and abused, groped and assaulted, so from my experience it is the environment I grew up in - aware of men.
NC -
MK - trying to make me cry. The last couple of years, not comfortable this

Grrr. The cultural norm is that women have to explain why, and men don't.

Because "it's the law" only seems to work one way.

Look at how deeply ingrained ‘be kind’ is??

Jesus, it’s corrosive.

Another woman having to justify her lawful need for single sex spaces. Another woman having to explain their vulnerability around men and experience of personal and indirect sexual abuse and harassment. I applaud her courage but am angry that this is necessary in 2025.