Men in women’s groups.

[gingangirly]

Really unsure if I’m being unreasonable, but what do others think?

I belong to a FB group for women over 65 in my town. They have lots of get togethers, at least a couple a week. A few months ago there was a vote after a man requested to join. The overwhelming majority said no. If they want a similar group, start their own. Fair enough.

However there is a trans woman that has been welcomed with open arms. He would NOT pass as a woman, not quite a bloke in a wig but certainly you would know he was trans.

What do people think about this? Acceptable or not? I’m am totally the ‘live and let live’ but seems a bit disingenuous to ban men but not trans women?

@Howseitgoin
I don’t know, it sounds like someone getting a season ticket for Tottenham because they like wearing hats and scarfs, swearing and singing.

Good Lord.
Do you not see that some women, for reasons connected to their treatment by men, want spaces with no men? They are allowed in law to have them.

Your lack of compassion is astounding.

@Taztoy I am so sorry that you went through that, and continue to suffer.

I actually don’t disagree with this. So if a group is set up around particular interests then it’s a bit lazy to just assume it’s only of interest to one sex

it is, however, also lazy to assume transwomen have a genuine shared interest in (knitting or whatever) because they feel like - well, whatever it is they think women feel like

Of course, if a single sex group is set up specifically to be single sex then it also recognises the rights of people to choose a single sex group, not because of a lack of interest from the other sex, but because of a whole range of reasons, including eg the opportunity to include women who are survivors of rape and sexual abuse, and allow them to feel safe.

Anchorage’s comment that some people think too deeply about this is illuminating. As ever, people who really haven’t considered the reasons for the group being single-sex in the first place, and don’t consider the consequences for other people, who happily through open the doors for transwomen (in this case) while ignoring the women who are quietly leaving at the back.

I really wish people would think this through rather than just go with their ‘feelings’ If anyone (Maddy, Anchorage?) has thought it through and can bring a decent argument, please do - I’d love to hear it

In which case the group isn't for you in the first place so your opinion could not be less relevant.

It really depends on the individual group dynamics tho. The OP stated that they welcomed the trans person not the man so I assume they determined that she shared a commonality that was a good fit with women. Without knowing the details of the circumstances it's difficult to speak with certainty of what the distinguishing characteristics were. It would be interesting to know what exactly made the group comfortable with her tho.

As far as @Anchorage56 goes, I assume she was speaking for her own intuitions not others.

My experience with trans women is I don't feel threatened by them & able to connect with them on a different level that I do with men. I also have experience with very masculine & butch women who not only dislike the company of women but relate better to men. But as I said it's really an individual thing.

The categorical error that's being made here is the assumption there isn't an organic inclination driving behaviours, Personality traits are influenced by genes & hormones where more often than not align with a particular sex…. but not always. There's this thing called biological variation where there are outliers.

@Howseitgoin can you please explain to me where I have made a “categorical error” in any of my statements?

Just catching up with this thread again now and yes thank you, I've said from the beginning this is my own thoughts and feelings on whether I would welcome a trans person into a group. I don't know why my feelings on the matter are discounted simply because that's not how everyone feels 🙃

Can you rewrite that in English please?

Yes that would be her reasons, not mine. I don't have to change my opinions of trans people or whether I would want them in a group I'm a member of because a stranger on the internet went through something horrible with a man. You can't throw that at me and expect my own feelings to change.

You are absolutely entitled to feel how you want.

However, the law of the U.K. since the clarification by the Supreme Court says that single sex spaces means sex not gender.

Therefore, your group would have to admit all men (if they have more than 25 people).

If you’re ok with that then that’s fine but you can’t call it a women’s group when it isn’t that.

I don’t understand why people are so keen to break the law on this particular issue. For me it’s the law. It’s the same as every other law. It has to be obeyed. And if you, me, or whoever doesn’t like it, then the answer isn’t to break the law, it is to campaign to change it.

I’ve never expected your feelings to change and indeed have said that you are perfectly entitled to them.

but what you can’t do is have a single sex space for women and admit men. That is illegal.

It’s not about feelings for me - it’s about the law. And the law does not allow that.

And who says this imaginary friendship group has more than 25 members! Honestly. I'm not talking about the law I'm talking about how I feel on the matter and how I view it. If I happen to be a member of a group with say 26 people then I'll follow whatever rules are in place, I'm simply saying I personally don't have an issue with it!

They are pushing you to admit something they suspect you believe.

To play devil's advocate, I suspect the prevailing suspicion from those most hostile to trans woman acceptance by women is that there's some underlying internalised misogyny driving it as in stereotypical feminine behaviour being associated with women. JK Rowling's famous line is 'woman is not a costume' comes to mind. But what they fail to understand is that what makes trans women associated more to women on a psychological level is the organic inclinations they share with women on average. For example, what makes them more like women is not because they 'wear dresses' but the inclination to do so that we share.

Well that's where we are looking at OPs question through different eyes. I'm answering the question based on how I feel and my opinions, you are answering it simply on the current law. It's not really a question then is it. It's like saying- is murder illegal. Yes, end of discussion. This was more of an open question posed by the OP.

That’s what we are discussing?

i’m saying if it does then you cant admit a man without admitting all men. And in that circumstance I personally would chose to leave the group.

I don’t understand why you’re so keen to force men into a space where they are not legally allowed.

I am autistic. I obey the law (obsessively). And to me this is simple. And as clear as that.

OK yeah they can accuse me of having the well used label on MN - internalised misogyny 🙄

I'll continue to use my own brain and not be bullied into something just because I'm female and therefore I must think the same way as the majority of females.

I’m looking at the question and asking

is the group clearly for those in the uk - yes/no

does it claim to be a women only group - yes/no

are there more than around about 25 women in the group - yes/no

The answers to those questions will determine whether or not a man can lawfully be admitted.

I don’t like thought experiments with vague questions because they’re pointless. It only makes sense to me to ask the right questions based on the scenario.

so if your group is in another jurisdiction, doesn’t say women only and has under 25 people, you’ll get a different answer.

so tell me - genuinely - is your group that you’re imagining

in the uk
more than 25 people
for women

and then I can answer. Because I can’t mind read (and I’m bad at inference because I’m autistic) so please tell me how you imagine your group to be

In what way am I forcing something? I'm simply talking about how I feel on the matter. I could think 20mph is too slow in a built up area, that would be my feelings on the matter, it doesn't mean I speed about at 40mph does it.

OK you being autistic explains why you aren't understanding me 🙂

Yep, it's 'wrong think'…

But to be fair, I don't think a lot of these people have ever heard or been prepared to listen to a coherent explanation of why trans women & women have a shared associations. Given they have been saturated in oversimplified propaganda as well as many having been brutally victimised by men they are very resistant to at least really hearing 'the other side' they complain don't listen to them. Another problem is because some of their claims are legitimate they believe legitimising trans women will be a threat to them.

Exactly. So why aren’t you applying the law in the same way to this situation? I genuinely don’t understand.

Again @Howseitgoin can you please set out when I specifically have done any of that? Thank you.

Because the law doesn't apply to how I feel or think, only how I act.

So your group. If it had less than 25 members you’d admit a man? And then if it had more than 25 and still wanted to be a women’s group you’d ask the man to leave? Or you would convert the group to a both sexes welcome group?