Men in women’s groups.

[gingangirly]

Really unsure if I’m being unreasonable, but what do others think?

I belong to a FB group for women over 65 in my town. They have lots of get togethers, at least a couple a week. A few months ago there was a vote after a man requested to join. The overwhelming majority said no. If they want a similar group, start their own. Fair enough.

However there is a trans woman that has been welcomed with open arms. He would NOT pass as a woman, not quite a bloke in a wig but certainly you would know he was trans.

What do people think about this? Acceptable or not? I’m am totally the ‘live and let live’ but seems a bit disingenuous to ban men but not trans women?

I'm not breaking any law 😆 I'm saying I wouldn't have an issue with it

The law disagrees with you.

if you let one man in you have to allow all men in.

Nice you can laugh at me.

that’s just wonderful.

im glad my rape and trauma is providing you amusement. That’s so nice to know.

I dont know who this Rachel person is and why you are so obsessed with her. I've no intention of googling her, I'm wasting enough time trying to reply to everyone on here

What's your experience with one person got to do with me saying I personally have no issue with a trans woman joining some hypothetical group I might be a member of? Your directing your anger at the wrong person I'm afraid.

No. I’m not directing my anger at the wrong person.

You just don’t agree with the law and you’re happy to break it. And laugh at me and my trauma. Which says a lot about you and nothing about me.

Do you know how this forum works?

You’re laughing at me and my trauma. And you’re happy to break the law to enable men.

And you don’t understand consent.

She is a white person who claims to identify as African American, who blackens her face and wears an afro wig, who managed to get high up in African American groups. Basically a white woman in blackface.

From a fellow rape survivor to another.

Thank you.

and I know I talk about it on here every time this discussion comes up and I’m sorry if any fellow rape survivors are triggered.

but. It’s the law that you can’t allow a special class of men into women’s single sex spaces. Let one in, you have to let them all in. That’s the law.

So if we aren’t doing single sex protections, there’s no pregnancy protections, there’s no disabled reasonable adjustments, discrimination on the grounds of race can run rampant, and all of the protections in the EA can get in the bin.

All because men can’t take being told no.

If you allow a trans identifying man in to your hypothetical group, the law says if there’s more than 25 people in the group, you have to allow all men in.

And no. I don’t need to get off mn and seek further counseling (sic).

So a transwoman is not normal?!!!! Wow!!!!!!

Honestly what is wrong with people this morning. I'm not losing my Saturday morning to all this nonsense and hatred.

Please try and enjoy your weekend!

But what if the trans woman is behaving in a bossy, intimidating manner like many men do? What if he is taking over, other women are leaving as a result? What if he makes innuendo comments on the Facebook page, posts pics of himself in fetish gear? Are you still ok with this? Basically, does behaviour ever come into it for you? Do you imagine the trans woman to be inherently a delightful creature, never a nasty, aggressive man who hates women? Not that i believe the "nice" woman should get in either of course.

You are though.

It's literally impossible to believe trans people should be socially accepted as the opposite sex without condoning sexist assumptions about mental differences between men and women.

And that is why people are disagreeing so strongly with you.

'hatred'

Yeah, because women saying NO to men is 'hatred'. Fleeing when the questions get too tough and the cognitive dissonance cracks, and you have to actually think about what you are saying.

Oh I accept that you feel this way. I just think that you are wrong.

I believe that people who believe what you believe and act on those beliefs are damaging women's fragile social and political equality.

You are free to say what you think. I am free to say why I think you are misguided, point out logical or factual errors and highlight questions and consequences you have not considered.

You are the one claiming TW are not normal. I want both men to be treated the same. Which of us is being discriminatory?

The reason [you claim] it doesn't make sense to you is because you [claim you] think this is what people are saying when it isn't.

Of course what people are actually saying is the opposite.

Women (original female version) don't have one way of thinking or one way of being. The only thing we have in common is being physically female at birth and every day of our lives and living with the physical and social consequences, good and bad, that that brings.

It is in fact genderist Neo-sexists like you who believe almost all "all card carry vagina holders to think exactly the same.".

You have to.

Trans "woman" cannot obtain the actual only thing that all women have in common, female biology and the experiences and challenges that arise from it.

Therefore trans women and those who support their claim to be women have to invent and project some imagined non-physical commonality on to women and say "it is this, and not your body, that really makes you women" to turn womanhood into something they can claim as well.

Because if you really believed both that women can have any kind of body and that women could have any type of mind and any type of personality, you'd have no use for the concept of "woman" at all because there would be no meaningful group of people to whom to apply it.

I realise of course that you as an individual already know all this. You just choose to pretend you don't so you can attack and undermine women with nasty jabs and childish emojiis. Your posting history is there for everyone to see and I advise anyone who thinks I'm being harsh to check it.

Nevertheless I reply in good faith anyway because while your arguments may be false and weak, mine are strong and worth making.

Have a look into AGPs. Then come back here and say that there's not a problem.

Just don't do it while eating your lunch. 🤮

Surely if you're happy using mixed sex spaces yourself you can just go and do that? No one's stopping you. There's lots of them.

What is with the arguing with women who wish to have single sex spaces?

It's academic anyway, women don't have to convince you of anything. The law has confirmed protections for women. A number of posts in this thread demonstrate exactly why those legal protections are necessary.

It is rather ironic that those who claim to be adherents of 'reality' are actually pathologically opposed to acknowledging it lest it interfere with their oversimplified ideological project.

The idea that women on average don't have anything in common with one another other than their 'lady bits' is preposterous. Women, just like men on average have distinctive interests, inclinations & behaviours. Case in point, women are substantially less likely to be violent hence the demand for private spaces not to mention is reflected in their work choices (predominantly caring professions/pursuits), private interests/hobbies & consumerist choices.

The idea that the content in conversations & discussions in an all mens group v an all women's group are exactly the same is laughable. Now, that's not to say on an individual basis that always applies but certainly on average there would be a difference that unless you have never had any social contact with either would comprehend.

Now given individuals vary on a psychological, cultural & behavioural level & thus aren't necessarily representative of average group dynamics it stands to obvious reason that they maybe a better fit to the group they aren't a 'biological' member of & to suggest otherwise is pure denialist crankery.

I’m an adherent of the reality of the law in the U.K. which says that single sex spaces means sex not gender.

Admit one man and you have to admit them all. Even if that man identifies as a woman.

please explain to me how that is “crankery”?