Another breastfeeding one

[MisssCackle]

Couldn’t see a thread on this.
In the latest of Breastfeeding batshittery..‘Breastfeeding and Lactation Support UK’ have today posted this.

I am so angered by it. The UK breastfeeding rates are amongst some of the lowest globally. We should be empowering women, not erasing them. Encouraging them to leave if they disagree?? They should be ashamed.

I haven't though. So keep fishing.

I think looking at this thread though there are clear attempts to personally attack people for disagreeing with you, report people in real life for differing in opinion, and overall very heated unpleasant posts and posts purely aimed to troll and derail the thread. I mean even questioning why someone might become defensive when there's talk of reporting them, posting online about them in various groups etc - come on. I think we can do better than that in terms of how we engage with this type of debate. I understand why it's emotive for people but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be respectful in how you're approaching a discussion. (I mean the general you btw not you specifically)

You are luring women in need of help into online spaces for nefarious purposes. You are not there to primarily offer help and support. Any support is conditional on vulnerable women being forced into using gratuitous terminology with no medical, practical or relevant basis purely for the gratification of shady moderators who address women as 'doll' but find the word 'mum' repulsive.

I feel sick because I've been in breastfeeding groups where woman are trusting enough to post photos and now I am horrified at the thought of male voyeurs posing as 'chestfeeders' getting a kick out of this warped inclusiveness. This is the worst thing I have seen on the Internet for a long time. I will be phoning my LLL friend tomorrow.

But that's exactly what youre saying. Segregate trans people because you dont care to be inclusive and would rather only be within a social setting of those who share the same excluding beliefs as you all because you cant care to be inclusive in such a simple manner?

Every member is verified to ensure they are in fact lactating or working in a professional capacity alongside those who do lactate. But if you trust any group on social media to post your kids on that's a risk you take tbh. Other women can also be paedophiles, so can other mums, other lactating people, health care professionals, nursery staff, teachers etc

You do know LLL are also trans inclusive. They removed 3 members for refusing to use inclusive language.

If somebody feels their very existence is threatened unless they are constantly “validated” by other people, why does it become my burden to do it?
Normal people don’t crumble to dust if complete strangers don’t put their feelings front and centre.

Not to burst your bubble but LLL also promotes transgender lactation and inclusive language llli.org/breastfeeding-info/transgender-non-binary-parents/

As a midwife and a breastfeeding supporter 100% of the people I support are female.
Language can be modified for people who are uncomfortable presenting as female but biology is important to acknowledge.
If you are not biologically female I couldn't provide breastfeeding advice because the science I know is evidence based on the female body. As far as I am aware there is not an evidence base on males sustaining a baby on their secretions.
For those who English isn't their first language it may be difficult to make modifications to language, but they are amongst the most vulnerable in our society. Is excluding those who struggle with the intrecices of gendered English really inclusive?

I have never heard of women having to verify they are lactating before joining an online group. I don't even dare ask in what form that demand for proof is taking place. Good grief, I feel revolted. The world is a dark place. Absolutely shocking.

Biologically female =/= ladies, woman, girl, mama etc

Centring males, or women who try to insist that they’re males, is not a simple matter, ffs!
You’re taking about a breastfeeding group…. Fucking hell.

Well now you have.. so you'd prefer we didn't get profiles and let anyone in whether they are lactating or not? How does that keep members safe? Without vetting members anyone could join with a fake profile.

Becky, you're misunderstanding my point about excluding women with disabilities.

When I did my face-to-face bf counsellor training, when I did my further online qualification (for supporting parents to feed human milk), at absolutely no point did anyone mention that some women may not have full use of both arms, or how to support them. Yes, bf cushions were mentioned, but not in the context of women with disabilities.

I would bet both of my shitty arms that you have more group members with physical disabilities than you do people who do not wish to be identified as a mother. Yet, you continue to offer ableist advice. I am sure that if an individual woman asked for advice specific for her situation, you would give it (you do/did generally give excellent advice). But my point is, in your group (of which I was a member for many years) you discuss the act of breast/chest/human-milk feeding as if all who do it have two arms that fully work as they should. Just as you have advised members that they should not assume all people who chest/human-milk/breast feed are mothers, or want to be called mums, you should also ask them to consider that there are a large number of disabled participants in your group and please be mindful of ableist language.

Nobody is "centering males" at all though. Using inclusive language centers nobody and quite frankly IS a simple matter.

Shame on them, condoning what amounts to scientific experiments on tiny babies.

So how other companies train supporters is now also my fault is it? I can't change the content of courses I don't run.
We are mindful of Ableist language.

You do not know me. You know nothing about the group I co-run which does not only operate in an online space. At NO point did anyone say they found the word 'mum' repulsive. Asking someone to simply say everyone when referring to a mixed group is not gratuitous terminology particularly when it's coupled with language that is specific to women as well therefore not erasing the female experience. I have entered into this discussion in good faith simply with a different viewpoint. You have attacked my own parenting and trauma, made unfair assumptions about my upbringing and then used that upbringing nastily to attempt to undermine me, you have made assumptions about my gender and are threatening to try and post online to start a smear campaign and repeatedly directed posts at me after I stated that I would no longer engage with you due to the personal and unpleasant nature of your posts. I would never suggest that any woman sends identifiable or intimate images into a forum where she does not know the admins or members and cannot contact them in real life.

I understand that you are highly triggered right now due to fears around the harms men cause in this world but that does not give you the excuse to attack other women simply for disagreeing with you and having a different viewpoint.

I see no reason why language must be mangled to include women who’ve given birth but feel offended at being referred to as a mother.

Wait, so you’re concerned about the potential presence of male voyeurs in a breastfeeding group AND horrified by the idea of verifying the identity of prospective members in order to prevent male voyeurs from being able to join?

That must be a very confusing position to be in.

Would that be when they are asked to say "everyone" or "anyone" or just be called by their actual name by HCP unless they request otherwise? Because those are the only examples that have actually been mentioned in this thread. Is that really what we are now classing as mangled language?

Why would anyone need to bother with a fake profile when the entire premise of the group seems to be to allow males to indulge in a sexual fantasy of pretending to be a breastfeeding mother. I am appalled.

So it’s ok to refer to them as Mums?
If not, why not? It’s what they are, however much anyone protests against it.

Well that's coz you're incorrect about what the group is..it's to give help, support and information to ALL lactating people and lactating people only are allowed. So no males who are wanting to sexualise breastfeeding wouldn't be in there due to our vetting process which you also seem to take issue with. So you don't want us to check who is in the group but are worried about who may be in the group.

In your opinion, as according to your own views and beliefs around sex and gender. But different people, believe different things. So it's simply being respectful with your use of language (without erasing any one else) in order to try and make support around feeding more accessible for people who might otherwise struggle to engage with it. Same as creating campaigns around breastcancer that use accessible language to make it easier for trans/ non binary/ male people to engage with an important issue. You don't personally have to agree with their belief system, but if you're engaging in a shared space that involves some form of social contract you will be expected to be respectful of the differences that exist between people in that space?