Another breastfeeding one

[MisssCackle]

Couldn’t see a thread on this.
In the latest of Breastfeeding batshittery..‘Breastfeeding and Lactation Support UK’ have today posted this.

I am so angered by it. The UK breastfeeding rates are amongst some of the lowest globally. We should be empowering women, not erasing them. Encouraging them to leave if they disagree?? They should be ashamed.

Imagine there was a tiny religion that adhered by the belief that babies weren't born from a woman's body but, through magic, appeared transubstantiation like.

The female followers obviously birthed their infants but dogma and scripture demanded they ignore that and proclaim that the children appeared in a cabbage leaf.

The rest of society roll their eyes or just ignore this and get on with everyday living. However, new mothers were chastised in support groups if they mentioned their labour, c-section etc at a very vulnerable time in their lives.

Mothers proposed that the cabbage god followers be included in being addressed but 'women who've given birth recently and cabbage baby mums' was rejected as 'erased and offended' the acolytes.

No one minded being polite to the cabbage lot but being told that these post-partum mums couldn't refer to themselves as birthing women as it excluded the tiny other cohort and their internal narrative.

The collective identity and experience of the women became taboo to mention in what was supposed to be a nurturing, supportive environment and were made to feel shamed and chastised for naming themselves and recognising others.

If the new mum group's leaders had added on the 'and cabbage mums' bit and not policed the language then a lot of problems would've been avoided.

Forgive me, but isn't your suggestion exactly what the group in the OP is doing?

It's called Breastfeeding and lactation support.

The moderator who joined the thread has confirmed women can refer to themselves how they wish.

The moderator has said that the rule is posts addressed to the whole group need to be neutral (i.e. "hi all").

I would bet the farm that the vast majority of the group will be referring to themselves as mums or a variation thereof in their own posts and discussions. So how much would "hi all" instead of "hi mums" when addressing the entire page really change things?

I agree the whole thing is silly but I do think some posters are rather over-egging the pudding with their outrage.

In practice though this is still censoring a wider variety of posts i.e. "how do other mums feel about xyz?" as it is addressed at all posters. It censors normal conversations and feelings of being in a female group.

This is ‘erasing the existence’ of the female sex.

Exactly

I bet if the admin started their own posts with 'mums/women/ etc and parents' then there'd be no problem.
Telling other women that they can't is putting a teeny minority belief and their (comparable to religious) identity above the reality based factual identity of the rest.

Quite.

I imagine that a very large majority of websites and Facebook groups that talk about offering breastfeeding support are aimed at biological women and the term/pronouns they use are also female.

I genuinely don't think anyone feels the need to amend their practice in order to accommodate a very small minority of breastfeeding "people" who don't class themselves as women, as their focus will be on supporting the huge majority of their service users, which are women.

All this angst is just a tick box exercise as the truth of the matter is that most 'people' who are breastfeeding are women and are happy to go by that term. If the person doesn't class themselves as a woman but are still seeking out feeding support they are probably in such a sleep-deprived, emotional and stressful post-partum state (never mind all the added trauma that BF difficulties cause), that they wouldn't even notice, or care, if they were referred to as a Giraffe, never mind as a woman.

To be completely 100% fair, I also find 'hey mamas' cringeworthy, but I'm just a curmudgeon on the internet, not trying to encourage women to breastfeed.

When you're busy acting like the Thought Police, saying "a bigger boy made us do it", even if true, happens to make you look rather spineless.

But I thought trans men were real men in the world of transness…

this lot want it all ways 🙄 ridiculous

The group isn't for support from group members though. Were an admin led group so people aren't asking the entire group they're asking the admins. If they want a community group thats not us.

I think a lot of people find ‘hey mama’ a bit cringe, but would not class it as transphobic abuse.

Why the policing of language then?
You have contradicted yourself. Are they ‘assuming the gender’ of 57,000 members, or the admins?

Is this all because one of the admins is trans/non-binary?

Please can you explain how the scientific term 'cis' relates to people.

It sounds very much as though you are saying there is a wrong and a right way to be female, but I'm assuming that can't be the case, because that is is just bog standard sexism.

It's wrong because it's creating an in group and and out group. If I were trying to reach out to women having trouble with breastfeeding, I wouldn't start by trying to police their language, particularly in situations where no offence is meant. and it's very difficult to rationally explain why anyone should object to the language.

I dislike 'hey mamas' because I associate it with a particular kind of American online parenting which I find grating - but that is a me problem. I'm attaching meaning to a word that other people aren't. In reality 'mama' is just another word for mother, which is a neutral way to describe people who have given birth.

And that's the inherent cruelty isn't it? Post partum women at their most vulnerable and exhausted being "greeted" with a lecture about language they must and mustn't use.

The most common, accepted and used language to describe women who have given birth - mother - is suddenly unacceptable and must be eradicated.

It's ironical that the words and behaviour of so many people who self identify as "be kind & on the right side of history" use words & behaviour that evidence the opposite. And as we see in maternity scandal after maternity scandal, so much of this toxicity towards women is enabled and funded by the NHS.

#BeKind is such a superficial response to a complicated question. It’s a really easy, instinctive gut reaction to want to accommodate everyone’s preferences.
It’s only when you think a bit deeper about the implications that you realise it’s an absolute can of worms. You think it’s just about cost free language tweaks.

Who are you excluding when you prioritise inclusion? Why aren’t you stopping people referring to other things that might upset people with physical disabilities? Sight impairment or restricted use of limbs?

Who are you not making extra efforts to protect from feeling upset?

What are the eventual ramifications of the policy?

BeKind has led to men in women’s sports and prisons, increased opportunities for predatory men, and absolute shit show with statistics which will eventually impact provision of services, a general devaluing of women and women’s needs.

It’s normalised the mutilation of women’s and children’s bodies. Teenage girls should not be encouraged into binders, testosterone and mastectomies. And they are.

BeKind is actually #NotVeryKindAtAll.

What if English isn’t their first language? If I’d carefully typed a post in English and was asked to ‘make it more inclusive’, I might not have the faintest idea what was wanted.
My autistic kid would have steeled herself to post in a group- really been brave- and then to be met with ‘you’re saying it wrong’ would have devastated her and demolished her confidence.

It’s not inclusive to prioritise some people’s needs over everyone else.

"Inclusive" language isn't terribly inclusive of those for whom English is an additional language, of those with learning disabilities, or of GC women, is it?

In a female only group, insisting on the erasure of female terms like mother or woman is an act of misogyny. Our language matters. Without words to describe our sex and our experience, we are disempowered.

For the tiny number of women who have a gender identity (many of us don't, whatever Stonewall says) and regard themselves as not women despite having given birth and breastfeeding I imagine their cognitive dissonance between physical reality and mental gymnastics is something no amount of "hi everyone" can resolve. They've just been through the most female possible thing to do. Denying it is fruitless.

It’s about disciplining women not to say - or even allow ourselves to think - that maybe female bodies and female experiences might matter

That’s why it’s always aimed at women, often at our most vulnerable times, not at men’s groups.

@STMWBec
I remember trying to breastfeed after a traumatic birth. I was very ill, in pain, frightened, and desperate. I had just become a mother and I was responsible for keeping this tiny thing alive.

If the price of breastfeeding support, in order to do what I thought was the best thing for my baby, was to agree that I would use specific language, or I wouldn't use specific language, I would have done it. I wouldn't have even realised at the time what I was doing, what I was actually agreeing to or what I was giving away. I would have thought I had to do so as the price of help for me and my baby. And I suppose I would then have had to remember not to use the most natural and obvious words, like mother, when I asked anything.

You may think that all the women who go along with this are happy with it and agree with you. I suspect that is not the case. It is far more likely that many of them feel they have no option.

You may think you are "being kind", but to the thousands of women who may be in a similar situation, it is a misuse of your position and a weaponising of their vulnerability. You are exercising power over them at a time when they may barely be able to function. It is cruel.

Absolutely agree. It’s just rancid authoritarian guff, which just happens to alienate women from talking about and inhabiting their bodies at a time when they should be encouraged to feel confidence in their biology and acknowledge how astonishing it is.

Yes, it’s cruel. These hideous people running these groups would’ve been very at home running workhouses back in the day, sitting in judgment on those who need their help.

But you have admitted you don’t even know what trans folx want or need. Why have you not asked those trans folx what they require from you? I mean, the title of your group is triggering enough, but your language in this thread, particularly your use of “cis” and your refusal to accept trans folx as they truly are shows you are not as inclusive as you pretend. You have said you don’t see TM as men, you refuse to allow TW in, even if they are lactating and you continue to use triggering and offensive language. You have even accused me of transphobia as you are obviously not educated enough in how to respect trans folx.

I’ll never understand a woman, mother, trainee midwife who is happy with erasing the word ‘woman’ from the future of maternity care (I assume she also uses chestfeeding, birthing people, those who menstruate etc in practice), to the point where she has been aggressively demanding it on her group, mumsnet, X….. calling people bigots, transphobes, banning them…for refusing to bow down to this damaging gender ideology (still gobsmacked by your unprofessionalism here, by the way). From somebody whose very role is that of supporting women, primarily - it is unforgivable.
It makes me laugh that one of rules of the group is that they follow ‘biological norms not societal ones’ such as ‘early weaning’, but refuse to accept that the biological norm (fact) that a person who gives birth and breastfeeds is a WOMAN and a MOTHER. This from somebody who is currently studying female biology.
I am waiting for the day this is demanded of me in my job role. I will be ready to stand up for the majority of service users (women) and refuse to diminish the - as you put it - validity of their existence. Shame on you for playing a part in this @STMWBec.

@MisssCackle Very well put.. STMWBec has said they actually delete a posts that uses the term "mums" etc. and asks them to use "gender neutral" terms. In a breastfeeding FB group FFS.

How is that inclusive? For a lot of women with mental health issues or not that's going to be upsetting or demoralising.

It's not even at the request of anyone trans. Those transmen I've come across seem quite pragmatic, especially as these feminine terms aren't addressed at them personally.

I presume if STMWBec were running mumsnet they'd rename it and insist no OP addresses any questions to "mums"...