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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ammunition in Kirk Shooting Engraved with Transgender, Antifascist Ideology

251 replies

defrazzled · 11/09/2025 16:06

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/charlie-kirk-shot/card/ammunition-in-kirk-shooting-engraved-with-transgender-antifascist-ideology-sources-pdymd1sXXMSlVRhpvR4b

A young father shot dead, this is horrifying.

OP posts:
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15
Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/09/2025 14:23

I’ve watched and read a lot of people talking about this. There is just speculation. If they had anything they’d post it. Look, @Pomni you've got your opinion and I’ve got mine. That’s fine. But for you to claim you have all the answers is laughable. I’m certainly not going to claim I do.

I just don’t like the modern tendency to spread online fake narratives as fact. That’s how the summer riots started last year, after all. Fake news about the Southport killer being a Muslim. We all need to be more sceptical and critical of information.

SionnachRuadh · 14/09/2025 14:27

I think the important thing is to be modest about things that we know we don't know. If Robinson was heavily into gamer culture, that's something I don't know and can't add much insight to.

The one thing I might have some insight into is the religious and political culture Robinson grew up in. (I'm not Mormon, but a huge chunk of my extended family are.)

Robinson came from the St George area in southern Utah. The Salt Lake metro area, four hours drive away, is relatively liberal and diverse, and full of transplanted Californians. If you grew up in St George, you're Mormon and everyone you know is Mormon. It's a stodgy conservative culture that many young people find stifling.

An important point about Utah politics that commentators from coastal America don't get is the enormous emphasis that Mormon culture places on respectability. It's a very Republican voting state, but the Utah version of conservatism likes candidates like Mitt Romney, who is a morally upstanding family man, who is never verbally intemperate, who seems to have no scandals, and if Romney is a treacherous unprincipled weasel, they can live with that because he's respectable.

They don't particularly like Donald Trump, because he's rude and crass and blingy and has a tabloid personal life. Even if they agreed with everything he says, Trump offends against all the taboos of Mormon respectability. The LDS church leadership usually avoid getting involved in politics, but in 2016 they were giving barely concealed support to independent candidate Evan McMullin, the Mormon ex-CIA guy whose entire campaign was based on siphoning off conservative votes to sabotage Trump.

There's also a knee-jerk hostility to populist politics that long predates Trump. Back in the 1960s, LDS church apostle Ezra Taft Benson went way down the far right conspiracy theory rabbit hole, to the point where Prophet David McKay banned him from making political speeches and sent him abroad to look after overseas missions. These are people who believe there is a natural order and hierarchy in the world; they really don't like disruptive populism.

As for the gun thing, Utah and Idaho are the kind of states where hunting is very much part of the culture. That includes teaching children how to be safe around guns. You don't have to like it, but it is what it is.

Utah is also home to lots of odd subcultures, including the far right and the far left, and most prominently the polygamist sects who thrive in isolated rural areas.

I don't know anything very specific about Robinson. All I can say is, by the law of averages, if he were in rebellion against his upbringing, it would not amaze me if he'd fallen into the trans/antifa convergence.

TheCatsTongue · 14/09/2025 14:28

Pomni · 14/09/2025 14:12

All there has been so far on all sides is speculation. The truth is we don't know yet, all we can do is look at what's likely.

The only real evidence we have is that Tyler Robinson handed himself in and is in custody, and the things he wrote on the casings.

Jumping to conclusions about what the casings mean (e.g. assuming it must be anti fascist) is perhaps understandable but misguided as it betrays a lack of understanding of youth subcultures online.

Far right nut jobs don't need a lot of encouragement to go after left wingers IRL and I'm not going to stand by and say nothing when it seems obvious there's a lot more to it, and this young man was likely influenced by the far right, given the evidence we have just now.

Here's a video you should watch, for example.

"A quick crash course in blackpill accelerationism: the memes are the ideology.”

https://x.com/citizengatsby/status/1967009991719874959

This reads:

"We shouldn't speculate, but it's the far right."

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/09/2025 14:29

It really does 😂

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/09/2025 14:30

SionnachRuadh · 14/09/2025 14:27

I think the important thing is to be modest about things that we know we don't know. If Robinson was heavily into gamer culture, that's something I don't know and can't add much insight to.

The one thing I might have some insight into is the religious and political culture Robinson grew up in. (I'm not Mormon, but a huge chunk of my extended family are.)

Robinson came from the St George area in southern Utah. The Salt Lake metro area, four hours drive away, is relatively liberal and diverse, and full of transplanted Californians. If you grew up in St George, you're Mormon and everyone you know is Mormon. It's a stodgy conservative culture that many young people find stifling.

An important point about Utah politics that commentators from coastal America don't get is the enormous emphasis that Mormon culture places on respectability. It's a very Republican voting state, but the Utah version of conservatism likes candidates like Mitt Romney, who is a morally upstanding family man, who is never verbally intemperate, who seems to have no scandals, and if Romney is a treacherous unprincipled weasel, they can live with that because he's respectable.

They don't particularly like Donald Trump, because he's rude and crass and blingy and has a tabloid personal life. Even if they agreed with everything he says, Trump offends against all the taboos of Mormon respectability. The LDS church leadership usually avoid getting involved in politics, but in 2016 they were giving barely concealed support to independent candidate Evan McMullin, the Mormon ex-CIA guy whose entire campaign was based on siphoning off conservative votes to sabotage Trump.

There's also a knee-jerk hostility to populist politics that long predates Trump. Back in the 1960s, LDS church apostle Ezra Taft Benson went way down the far right conspiracy theory rabbit hole, to the point where Prophet David McKay banned him from making political speeches and sent him abroad to look after overseas missions. These are people who believe there is a natural order and hierarchy in the world; they really don't like disruptive populism.

As for the gun thing, Utah and Idaho are the kind of states where hunting is very much part of the culture. That includes teaching children how to be safe around guns. You don't have to like it, but it is what it is.

Utah is also home to lots of odd subcultures, including the far right and the far left, and most prominently the polygamist sects who thrive in isolated rural areas.

I don't know anything very specific about Robinson. All I can say is, by the law of averages, if he were in rebellion against his upbringing, it would not amaze me if he'd fallen into the trans/antifa convergence.

Really interesting background, thank you.

TheCatsTongue · 14/09/2025 14:32

Unless I've missed it, the one thing I find strange we don't know about is what Robinson does. Is he a student? Is he employed etc?

EasternStandard · 14/09/2025 14:33

TheCatsTongue · 14/09/2025 14:28

This reads:

"We shouldn't speculate, but it's the far right."

Yep

thatsthewayitis · 14/09/2025 14:37

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/09/2025 14:30

Really interesting background, thank you.

Yes, I'm an East Coast type and I really appreciate @SionnachRuadh your discussion of Utah Mormon culture. I have no clue.I have distant cousin who converted to Mormonism and married one and my conservative family were horrified.

SionnachRuadh · 14/09/2025 14:40

thatsthewayitis · 14/09/2025 14:37

Yes, I'm an East Coast type and I really appreciate @SionnachRuadh your discussion of Utah Mormon culture. I have no clue.I have distant cousin who converted to Mormonism and married one and my conservative family were horrified.

Edited

It's a very strange culture to outsiders. Oddly enough South Park gets it very well - Trey and Matt are from Colorado and grew up around Mormons, and their general attitude is "their beliefs are really weird, but they're so nice we can't hold it against them"

Signalbox · 14/09/2025 14:53

Pomni · 14/09/2025 14:12

All there has been so far on all sides is speculation. The truth is we don't know yet, all we can do is look at what's likely.

The only real evidence we have is that Tyler Robinson handed himself in and is in custody, and the things he wrote on the casings.

Jumping to conclusions about what the casings mean (e.g. assuming it must be anti fascist) is perhaps understandable but misguided as it betrays a lack of understanding of youth subcultures online.

Far right nut jobs don't need a lot of encouragement to go after left wingers IRL and I'm not going to stand by and say nothing when it seems obvious there's a lot more to it, and this young man was likely influenced by the far right, given the evidence we have just now.

Here's a video you should watch, for example.

"A quick crash course in blackpill accelerationism: the memes are the ideology.”

https://x.com/citizengatsby/status/1967009991719874959

That's an interesting video. The online world is an enigma.

GallantKumquat · 14/09/2025 23:37

GoldThumb · 14/09/2025 00:44

But most historians treat Paul’s letters as primary evidence?
Predating the gospels by a couple of decades?

Edit: primary source that should say

Edited

I hate to derail a thread, especially one as partisan as this one that I've weighed in on, but the historicity of Jesus is fascinating. Paul's letter's are by far the oldest extant compositions in the Bible. He's notable for the fact that he never met Jesus while he was living and that the Jesus that Paul describes in his non-apocryphal letters is an eternal celestial being with Gnostic aspects, almost completely devoid of historicity. Most references to Jesus outside of the Christianity, Jospephus, Tacitus Suetonius, etc. could have come from Christian sects themselves, or have been later insertions/interpolations/forgeries. Even the later account of Jesus in New Testament when shorn of their supernatural and obvious prophecy fulfillment elements presents a life with remarkably few details.

And yet, the story told is plausible for a historical figure, and with the gigantic strides that have been made in our understanding of ancient history and archeology, including the uncovering of previous lost texts, archeological contexts and and countless contemporary non-literary records, there is nothing that has falsified the outline of Jesus' life that we have in the bible or even made it seem less plausible.

So, how to evaluate the situation where our knowledge of the era has increased vastly, yet no confirmation or even new suggestive evidence has been found that Jesus was historical, and yet, in our vastly expanded view of the ancient world, the general consistency of a demytholized historical Jesus has remained? These facts pull plausibility in two different directions.

My personal, amateur opinion, which is idiosyncratic, is that Lucian provides the key. Lucian's The Passing of Peregrinus details the life of Peregrinus, a cynic philosopher who converts to Christianity causes all sorts of schismatic mischief, is eventually expelled for moral impropriety and self immolates himself on the Olympic bonfire presumably in imitation of Indian mystics. Lucian was ethnically Syrian, and his writing, especially his On the Syrian Goddess, showed that he commanded considerable, detailed knowledge about religious practice in the region. So, while the Passing of Peregrinus is satire and mostly directed at his favorite target, Cynics, we can expect it to be well-informed and unlikely to have been tampered with to improve the image or notability of Christians, at least by other Christian apologists. The Christianity that Lucian describes is a naive, credulous religion that undergoes a philosification which then becomes discredited. One can imagine that if this happened, perhaps several times, that the restoration of the original corporeal founder would have had few remaining historical details left. Lucian doesn't refer to Jesus by name, but instead in the following way:

It was then that he (Peregrinus) learned the wondrous lore of the Christians, by associating with their priests and scribes in Palestine. And—how else could it be?—in a trice he made them all look like children, for he was prophet, cult-leader, head of the synagogue, and everything, all by himself. He interpreted and explained some of their books and even composed many, and they revered him as a god, made use of him as a lawgiver, and set him down as a protector, next after that other, to be sure, whom they still worship, the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world.

I contend that not only does this answer the question of why it's so difficult to show a historical Jesus, but also that one can find echoes of Paul, a pseudonymous name like Peregrinus, perhaps as a composite. Richard Carrier has written extensively on the historicity of Jesus. He comes out on balance against it. But he provides an ancient history view outside of the profession of early church scholarship and biblical and Christian studies. In particular he answers the question of why professional certainty in academia of the historicity of Jesus far exceeds the strength of the evidence.

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2025 00:01

There are reports of what was said on discord starting to come out.

I've seen some which seems to now be verified by media source and other stuff which is more questionable.

I have feeling the FBI are going to struggle to keep this out of the public eye tbh. I think its potentially going to open up a can of worms for anyone who was in the Discord too.

I think there's more to come out which is going to be difficult for a lot of groups to deal with...

GoldThumb · 15/09/2025 00:10

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2025 00:01

There are reports of what was said on discord starting to come out.

I've seen some which seems to now be verified by media source and other stuff which is more questionable.

I have feeling the FBI are going to struggle to keep this out of the public eye tbh. I think its potentially going to open up a can of worms for anyone who was in the Discord too.

I think there's more to come out which is going to be difficult for a lot of groups to deal with...

Did Discord not put out a statement that there was nothing relating to the shooting on his account?
I’m sure there were early reports of this?

InWalksBarberalla · 15/09/2025 00:15

GoldThumb · 15/09/2025 00:10

Did Discord not put out a statement that there was nothing relating to the shooting on his account?
I’m sure there were early reports of this?

Yes I saw that too which seemed to contradict some of the other reportsabout what was on the discord chats. I did read that the shooter did say things on discord but others thought he was just talking shit. But the investigation has been widened to see if anyone else was involved in anyway so we'll have to wait and see.

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2025 00:23

GoldThumb · 15/09/2025 00:10

Did Discord not put out a statement that there was nothing relating to the shooting on his account?
I’m sure there were early reports of this?

I believe so. But then that's not consistent with things that have been said about messages by the police and information from the press. Discord almost have a vested interest to try and kill this off because they potentially could be at risk of liability in some way if they aren't careful. I'm also mindful that trolls often don't just have one account anyway.

Plus there's a difference to taking about after the fact and planning, but this could get sticky too. But even this could be problematic tbh anyway.

It sounds like the FBI are potentially struggling to put together a coherent strategy on how to handle the case because they still haven't fully grasped the why bit tbh.

It could get embarrassing and awkward politically if they aren't careful.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/09/2025 00:28

They could have done it in code also, which would probably be enough for Discord to claim there wasn’t anything.

GoldThumb · 15/09/2025 00:29

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2025 00:23

I believe so. But then that's not consistent with things that have been said about messages by the police and information from the press. Discord almost have a vested interest to try and kill this off because they potentially could be at risk of liability in some way if they aren't careful. I'm also mindful that trolls often don't just have one account anyway.

Plus there's a difference to taking about after the fact and planning, but this could get sticky too. But even this could be problematic tbh anyway.

It sounds like the FBI are potentially struggling to put together a coherent strategy on how to handle the case because they still haven't fully grasped the why bit tbh.

It could get embarrassing and awkward politically if they aren't careful.

Yeah, I thought it was a bit dodgy when they said they had deleted his account.But then assumed they/the FBI could still access it, and maybe they just didn’t wants others searching for it (no idea how discord works tbh)

It doesn’t look good for them, they should have just issued a bland ‘we are cooperating with relevant authorities’ type statement.

Re: the FBI, yes especially as he’s pleading the 5th, they are probably trying to figure out who’s who, and whether people genuinely knew it or thought it was all lolz

GoldThumb · 15/09/2025 00:32

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/09/2025 00:28

They could have done it in code also, which would probably be enough for Discord to claim there wasn’t anything.

Yeah, god knows.

Just seems strange to come out straight away confidently stating there were no messages.

But probably correct they have a vested interest in not being involved and therefore liable.

TempestTost · 15/09/2025 02:39

BaronMunchausen · 14/09/2025 00:25

I'm not saying there wasn't - just that there's no evidence that there was. Most historians don't deal with the issue precisely because of the dearth of evidence (theologians aren't historians, and the gospels aren't history) - there's just nothing for them to examine. Tacitus and Suetonius mention early Christians and their beliefs but not a real historical man corresponding to the gospel Jesus. The early Christian interpolations in Josephus suggest that the absence of such evidence was a concern at the time. Merely questioning the evidence isn't a conspiracy theory or left wing.

Well, look - without getting into a very long post - if you go to any university to apply for a position in a department of ancient history, and tell them you don't think Jesus was a real person, you won't get the job. And they will laugh at you after you leave.

As historical figures go, there are plenty no one doubts the historical existence of who are less well evidenced.

And the gospels are absolutely considered historical evidence, just like other similar kinds of text are about other people, they were not written that long after the events they describe. . In the case of Jesus, there are a fair number of texts written by or making reference to people who knew him directly, and lots who were one generation removed - their mentors and teachers knew Jesus and his followers. This is like being a teenager and your teacher tells you about how he used to go to classes with Heidegger. It's really not far removed at all.

The idea that there was no such person requires a lot more explaining and involves a lot more improbable speculations.

BaronMunchausen · 15/09/2025 07:33

TempestTost · 15/09/2025 02:39

Well, look - without getting into a very long post - if you go to any university to apply for a position in a department of ancient history, and tell them you don't think Jesus was a real person, you won't get the job. And they will laugh at you after you leave.

As historical figures go, there are plenty no one doubts the historical existence of who are less well evidenced.

And the gospels are absolutely considered historical evidence, just like other similar kinds of text are about other people, they were not written that long after the events they describe. . In the case of Jesus, there are a fair number of texts written by or making reference to people who knew him directly, and lots who were one generation removed - their mentors and teachers knew Jesus and his followers. This is like being a teenager and your teacher tells you about how he used to go to classes with Heidegger. It's really not far removed at all.

The idea that there was no such person requires a lot more explaining and involves a lot more improbable speculations.

I'm familiar with at least one university Ancient History department and they don't study Jesus because there's nothing to study. It's religion, and the gospels aren't Thucydides. Bits purloined from Josephus, sure - but obvious pious fictions, dominated by the miraculous and the didactic. The Theology department, OTOH... you'd be correct.

BaronMunchausen · 15/09/2025 08:51

@GallantKumquat It’s kind of relevant in that discussion does tend to be partisan, focused on positions and shaping dubious evidence to fit one’s desired conclusion?! Hey, we even have codes! (Plus it seems Jesus may have some shadowy involvement in this assassination....perhaps the sidetrack could continue while evidence is still lacking?).

Carrier has written extensively on this - I don’t really understand his Bayesian probability stuff, but his field knowledge is solid. He also published a paper some time ago on Antiquities Book XX’s apparent reference to Jesus as a scribal interpolation, which was fairly obvious I thought, but needed to be pointed out. I’m not aware of anything that has emerged in the past few generations to either falsify or confirm historicity? Neither the Dead Sea Scrolls nor any Judaean archaeology? What has changed is that people have been freer to speak and to challenge received wisdom. Though the Irish theologian Fr Thomas Brodie quickly found himself out of a job and vowed to silence after he published Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus!

Paul’ Epistles are of course (with the possible exception of Hebrews) the oldest thing in the NT rather than in the Bible. The gospel Jesus didn’t just have his later imitators like Peregrinus Proteus, but - more significantly I think - earlier models like Jesus ben Ananias - the Jesus who preached the fall of Jerusalem and whom Jewish leaders hauled in front of the Roman procurator who found no fault in him but gave him a good whipping all the same. Such sources, along with the documentary trajectory from mystical Paul to historicised miracle-worker and preacher, and the crude efforts to fabricate evidence such as the Testimonium, cast significant doubt on the certainty found in theology departments.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 15/09/2025 13:29

Britinme · 14/09/2025 13:39

I follow Heather Cox Richardson’s Substack and highly recommend it for sensible history-based discussion of what’s happening in America. Today’s issue partly discusses Kirk’s assassination - here’s the relevant extract:

”But once you have untethered the political narrative from reality, you are at the mercy of anyone who can commandeer that narrative.
In the wake of the murder of right-wing activist Charlie Kirk in Utah on Wednesday, the radical right is working to distort the country’s understanding of what happened. Long before any information emerged about who the shooter was, the president and prominent right-wing figures claimed that “the Left,” or Democrats, or just “THEY,” had assassinated Kirk.
White House deputy chief of staff Stephen Miller posted an attack on his political opponents on social media: “There is an ideology that has steadily been growing in this country which hates everything that is good, righteous and beautiful and celebrates everything that is warped, twisted and depraved. It is an ideology at war with family and nature. It is envious, malicious, and soulless. It is an ideology that looks upon the perfect family with bitter rage while embracing the serial criminal with tender warmth. Its adherents organize constantly to tear down and destroy every mark of grace and beauty while lifting up everything monstrous and foul. It is an ideology that leads, always, inevitably and willfully, to violence—violence against those [who] uphold order, who uphold faith, who uphold family, who uphold all that is noble and virtuous in this world. It is an ideology whose one unifying thread is the insatiable thirst for destruction.”
But in fact, the alleged shooter was not someone on the left. The alleged killer, Tyler Robinson, is a young white man from a Republican, gun enthusiast family, who appears to have embraced the far right, disliking Kirk for being insufficiently radical.
Rather than grappling with reality, right-wing figures are using Kirk’s murder to prop up their fictional world. Briefly, they claimed Robinson had been “radicalized” in college. Then, when it turned out he had spent only a single semester at a liberal arts college before going to trade school, MAGA pivoted to attack those who allegedly had celebrated Kirk’s death on social media.
This morning, Miller posted: “In recent days we have learned just how many Americans in positions of authority—child services, law clerks, hospital nurses, teachers, gov[ernmen]t workers, even [Department of Defense] employees—have been deeply and violently radicalized. The consequence of a vast, organized ecosystem of indoctrination.”
Today, billionaire Elon Musk, who just months ago was a key figure in the White House, reposted a spreadsheet of “people who’ve said vile things” about Kirk’s murder. Over the list, he wrote: “They are the ones poisoning the minds of our children.” “So far, teachers and professors are by far the most represented,” the author of the list wrote.
Across the country, educators have been suspended or fired for posting opinions on social media that commented on Kirk’s death in ways officials deemed inappropriate. Legal analyst Asha Rangappa noted that “Americans are being conditioned to be snitches on their fellow citizens who don’t toe a party line on what is ‘allowed’ to be expressed. And employers are going along. It’s the new secret police.”
The deliberate attempt to create a narrative centering around “us” and “them” and to mobilize violence against that other was on display today when Musk told a giant anti-immigrant rally in the United Kingdom: “You're in a fundamental situation here…where whether you choose violence or not, violence is coming to you. You either fight back or you die. You either fight back or you die. And that's the truth.”
Of course, that is not the truth. It is a classic case of dividing the world into friends and enemies—a tactic suggested by Nazi political theorist Carl Schmitt—and inciting violence against newly identified enemies by claiming it is imperative to preempt them from using violence against your friends. Miller has vowed to use the power of the government not against the far right, where the violence that killed Kirk appears to have originated, but against MAGA’s political enemies. Flipping victims and offenders, he called his political opponents “domestic terrorists” and warned: “[T]he power of law enforcement under President Trump's leadership will be used to find you, will be used to take away your money, take away your power, and, if you've broken the law, to take away your freedom.”

You are doing much the same as you accuse the US right wing of doing, are you not?

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 15/09/2025 13:46

BaronMunchausen · 15/09/2025 08:51

@GallantKumquat It’s kind of relevant in that discussion does tend to be partisan, focused on positions and shaping dubious evidence to fit one’s desired conclusion?! Hey, we even have codes! (Plus it seems Jesus may have some shadowy involvement in this assassination....perhaps the sidetrack could continue while evidence is still lacking?).

Carrier has written extensively on this - I don’t really understand his Bayesian probability stuff, but his field knowledge is solid. He also published a paper some time ago on Antiquities Book XX’s apparent reference to Jesus as a scribal interpolation, which was fairly obvious I thought, but needed to be pointed out. I’m not aware of anything that has emerged in the past few generations to either falsify or confirm historicity? Neither the Dead Sea Scrolls nor any Judaean archaeology? What has changed is that people have been freer to speak and to challenge received wisdom. Though the Irish theologian Fr Thomas Brodie quickly found himself out of a job and vowed to silence after he published Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus!

Paul’ Epistles are of course (with the possible exception of Hebrews) the oldest thing in the NT rather than in the Bible. The gospel Jesus didn’t just have his later imitators like Peregrinus Proteus, but - more significantly I think - earlier models like Jesus ben Ananias - the Jesus who preached the fall of Jerusalem and whom Jewish leaders hauled in front of the Roman procurator who found no fault in him but gave him a good whipping all the same. Such sources, along with the documentary trajectory from mystical Paul to historicised miracle-worker and preacher, and the crude efforts to fabricate evidence such as the Testimonium, cast significant doubt on the certainty found in theology departments.

Hebrews itself doesn't claim to have been written by Paul.

BaronMunchausen · 15/09/2025 13:57

Indeed. I was suggesting it may be earlier than Paul's epistles.