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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/09/2025 21:45

BeeSourianteAgain · 12/09/2025 21:26

Apologies, I previously stated that the murderer was an anti-fascist - he is actually a groyper i.e. alt-right and radicalised on sites like KF and 4C. So more in line with 'gender critical' ideology.

Obviously murder is wrong, but so is aligning yourself with the far right, as many 'gender critical' activists are having a pikachu moment about.

So far NO apologies and just a single correction by the Wall Street Journal.

Sadly I can't even post some of the utter vileness I have seen from anti-trans types in the last two days as I'm sure I'd get immediately banned from here, but there's a whole load of people who really need to grow up (and get off extremist sites as they're rotting their brains).

More projection than Cineworld.

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2025 21:53

Ok, I've had a look at various explanations of these bullet casings. DHs first reaction was 4chan and that this will likely lead to a bunch of arrests of people who were on the same discord as him. There's some speculation that he was on an antifascist discord. I think that's probably what will happen but beyond that I think it's all a bit of a mess.

In terms of his politics this seems to be a point of some contention with a lot of attempts to disown him and blame 'the other side'.

There's a theory that he was a Groyper. A Groyper is a product of 4chan - they are what was the alt-right. More far right than the conservative right and have had a particular beef with Kirk and Turning Point for not being extreme enough. There's a photo of him doing the 'squatting slave meme' and much speculation about this and whether it's a form or the Pepe Meme or not. However he did call Kirk a fascist though bizarrely this apparently is something a Groyper might do. (Remember the Russians call Ukrainians fascist).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groypers

This would fit with his background of being a conservative and coming from a family who were into guns. But this doesn't tally with family accounts of becoming more political lately and criticised Kirk for spreading hate. Nor does it tally with his supposed membership of the Democratic Socialists of America (far left group) which photos suggest.

Then there's another take.

The reference Bella Ciao is supposed to be an antifascist reference and that he was far left. Which does fit with family accounts and the above political leanings.

Then there's a third, and although more difficult explanation. That he was a gamer who was brainwashed by violence and didn't have particularly set politics and instead was deeply embedded into online culture and detached from a particular position. Instead he had in effect rejected all religious and felt that life had no meaning. A form of hopeless rather than more of a coherent ideological belief. This actually perhaps more sense than the previous too.

A confused kid reading all kinds of extreme internet bollocks and not really understanding much of it fully thus picking up a range of different 'funny' shit (which isn't funny). 4chan isn't necessarily right or left wing - it's this weird mix of extremist, chaotic, simply troll crap for the lols which doesn't necessarily make much sense. It's more bothered about shit posting and winding up people than being organised and having an overarching political view. It's deeply misogynistic, extreme and offensive and that really the only points.

Notably both me and DH were going wtf at the press conference earlier about how amateur and ill thought out his assassination plan was. The word I used was that he sounded like a complete n00b. ("N00b" is an alternative, derogatory spelling of the slang term "newbie" or "noob," which refers to someone inexperienced or unskilled in a particular activity, especially online.) Its grossly naive, but probably seems very clever to him. It just makes no sense though in terms of how he planned it. It just seems like someone 'playing' at gaming in the real world and seeing if he could get away with it. Almost for fun and no other really deep reasoning. It has this feeling that he could no longer tell the real world from the online world and the fantasy in his head was that he could get away with it.

So option perhaps actually makes the most sense to me, but if that's the case then the world is going to have some fun trying to remotely understand Kirk's murder as far from having great significant political meaning, it's really a utterly meaningless waste of life and pretty anarchistic in practice. I'm not sure the world could cope with this explanation if it's the closest to reality.

Here a summary of this last theory in a bit more depth.

Leila AT LeilaClaire
I don’t want to be the first person to point this out, but to gamers “Bella Ciao” was not a song sung by “anti-fascists” but a collectible and the background music in a main quest in Far Cry 6, which is probably REAL relevant given his other gaming references

Zaid Jilani AT ZaidJilani
This is going to expose me as a gamer but both the arrows and the fascist reference they mention for the shooters ammo are direct references to the video game Helldivers 2 and are common memes.

Meaning extremely online gamer type, less so political manifesto.

I assume some FBI boomer saw these and doesn’t play video games and thought to himself oh that must be a transgender, antifa thing and that’s how we got the WSJ story

This is why the FBI and WSJ should employ more gamers.

Helldivers 2 is basically a satire like starship troopers it’s all tongue in cheek.

I’m not saying he doesn’t have any political ideology but if I had to guess the fact he scrawled internet memes on his stuff puts him more into the online nihilist camp and any politics is secondary.

And I think this studio is gonna have to put out a statement within 24 hours

Our first Video Game Extremist

No, I don't think video games make people violent. Disturbed people probably spend a lot of time indoors doing lonely activities though and so it became a cultural means for him to express his violence.

I genuinely don't know, but I get the sense that I'm not convinced this is as simplistic and black and white as people would like it to be or that it appeared on the initial surface. I'm open minded about where this heads now.

The only conclusion I draw is that he was mixed up with online communities that are fucked in the head and that's about as far as I get.

Groypers - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groypers

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2025 21:54

Image that should go with the previous post.

Charlie Kirk shot during a debate about trans people
Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/09/2025 22:03

I agree with the third option too @RedToothBrush

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/09/2025 22:05

I think @nauticant and a couple of us have said similar things. The concern about the rejoicing over violence and the violent threats towards women in the name of “trans rights” though are more focussed on leftist spaces, though.

CassOle · 12/09/2025 22:13

https://archive.ph/8OLy7

Archive of Guardian article.

wordler · 12/09/2025 22:14

GallantKumquat · 12/09/2025 21:33

My response wasn't directed at the gunman, of whom as I mentioned earlier on the thread, it's to early to know what his motivations were. It was directed at the violent, vicious, extreme rhetoric of left-oriented, on-line sites in response to the assassination, and the observation that it didn't, even a few short years ago, used to be that way.

I'm in the US - the right wing rhetoric before the shooter was identified was just as bad as the left oriented responses shared here. There were people calling for all Democrats to be killed, for the whole Democratic party to be erased from the face of the earth.

Six historically black universities all had to go on lockdown this morning because of multiple threats on the back of Charlie Kirk's death.

And again, a shooter ends up being a white male brought up in a strongly MAGA environment, in one of the whitest, most conservative states there is. Why were the black universities being threatened - because they followed Charlie Kirk and his very racist preaching?

Also I think @RedToothBrush 's third option is likely to be right. Although the trend is for young white men who end up committing the majority of these types of shootings tend to have been radicalized towards the right rather than the left.

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2025 22:16

Just seen this
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2025/09/12/charlie-kirk-shooting-suspect-live-updates/86104818007/

This makes sense if he's the third option.

Charlie Kirk shot during a debate about trans people
Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/09/2025 22:17

The family member, Cox said, recounted how Robinson had gone over for dinner and mentioned that Kirk was scheduled to speak at UVU. The family member recalled Robinson talking about not liking Kirk and his <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/8OLy7/www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/11/charlie-kirk-quotes-beliefs" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">viewpoints.
In a phone interview Friday, one of Robinson’s high school friends – who asked to remain anonymous – said that Robinson was “pretty left on everything” and was “the only member of his family that was, like, really leftist”.
The rest of his family was very hard Republican – like gun-loving, everything,” the friend said. “He was really the only one that was on the left.”
The friend said he was stunned when he saw the news on Friday that Robinson was the suspect in the Kirk case. “I knew he had strong political views,” the friend remarked, “but I never thought it would even go near that far.”

from the Guardian

OneAmberFinch · 12/09/2025 22:23

It is very hard to speculate about the motives of someone who is "extremely online" because there are so many layers of niche humour, edginess and irony, subtle distinctions, odd groupings that don't fall into neat categories but only make sense if you followed 7 years of niche drama and subcultures spinning off.

For instance, re: the Slav squat memes... https://x.com/Mithra_Is_Fine/status/1966593384052912323

I think I have an above-average general understanding of internet subcultures compared to most on MN but there's no way I could analyse the depths of this. If you just heard of groypers or Chapo Trap House today then you definitely are going to misunderstand something along the way. (Although you probably have better mental health than if you did know them...)

@RedToothBrush The only conclusion I draw is that he was mixed up with online communities that are fucked in the head and that's about as far as I get.

Absolutely!

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2025 22:23

I sometimes think people don't quite get 4chan. In many ways it's where the far left meets the far right rather than being one or the other. It's very anti establishment all round.

OneAmberFinch · 12/09/2025 22:24

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2025 22:23

I sometimes think people don't quite get 4chan. In many ways it's where the far left meets the far right rather than being one or the other. It's very anti establishment all round.

100%

nauticant · 12/09/2025 22:26

I've concluded similar,@RedToothBrush, that we're looking at an extremely online young man in an irony-soaked meme culture, who picked up shiny baubles like gaming and Antifa poses. The mainstream media seem unable to engage with this.

This view of Robinson is going to go down very badly with everyone but especially with MAGA land. They're going to want a different narrative that isn't about their rising star Charlie Kirk assassinated as a result of an inadequate young man having got caught up in something with that spiralling catastrophically.

As a result I think there's going to be a strong push for Robinson to be found guilty and executed as soon as can be arranged.

TempestTost · 12/09/2025 22:26

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 12/09/2025 20:38

What’s more unpleasant is other posters telling black women what they should be bothered about.

I think that's just a differernt way of saying the same thing.

People have differernt views. People within the same ethnicity, nationality, city, religion, and family, have differernt views. Race is an even more broad concept, why would anyone think they could or should all share the same ideas on things?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/09/2025 22:27

What I think is that going to a party dressed as a well known meme doesn’t really say much about your politics anyway.

OneAmberFinch · 12/09/2025 22:31

nauticant · 12/09/2025 22:26

I've concluded similar,@RedToothBrush, that we're looking at an extremely online young man in an irony-soaked meme culture, who picked up shiny baubles like gaming and Antifa poses. The mainstream media seem unable to engage with this.

This view of Robinson is going to go down very badly with everyone but especially with MAGA land. They're going to want a different narrative that isn't about their rising star Charlie Kirk assassinated as a result of an inadequate young man having got caught up in something with that spiralling catastrophically.

As a result I think there's going to be a strong push for Robinson to be found guilty and executed as soon as can be arranged.

@Ereshkigalangcleg is right though that the "lol LFG who's next" from the left does cast a political light regardless of the motives of the killer. The next "terminally online, not politically motivated" killer surely is going to be influenced by the meme value of that.

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2025 22:32

OneAmberFinch · 12/09/2025 22:23

It is very hard to speculate about the motives of someone who is "extremely online" because there are so many layers of niche humour, edginess and irony, subtle distinctions, odd groupings that don't fall into neat categories but only make sense if you followed 7 years of niche drama and subcultures spinning off.

For instance, re: the Slav squat memes... https://x.com/Mithra_Is_Fine/status/1966593384052912323

I think I have an above-average general understanding of internet subcultures compared to most on MN but there's no way I could analyse the depths of this. If you just heard of groypers or Chapo Trap House today then you definitely are going to misunderstand something along the way. (Although you probably have better mental health than if you did know them...)

@RedToothBrush The only conclusion I draw is that he was mixed up with online communities that are fucked in the head and that's about as far as I get.

Absolutely!

Definitely agree with that. It's a world of in jokes that evolve over time.

It's not something I know about hugely. I know bits from my time gaming but tbh a lot of this type of culture was exactly why I knocked it on the head.

Too many fucked up dickheads thinking they were king.

If it is like this in nature, there's going to be some pretty big head scratching come the trial.

Now would be a good time to start writing an online meme guidebook book for straight laced journalists over 45.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 12/09/2025 22:33

BeeSourianteAgain · 12/09/2025 21:26

Apologies, I previously stated that the murderer was an anti-fascist - he is actually a groyper i.e. alt-right and radicalised on sites like KF and 4C. So more in line with 'gender critical' ideology.

Obviously murder is wrong, but so is aligning yourself with the far right, as many 'gender critical' activists are having a pikachu moment about.

So far NO apologies and just a single correction by the Wall Street Journal.

Sadly I can't even post some of the utter vileness I have seen from anti-trans types in the last two days as I'm sure I'd get immediately banned from here, but there's a whole load of people who really need to grow up (and get off extremist sites as they're rotting their brains).

Sure Jan GIF

Sure Jan.

nauticant · 12/09/2025 22:37

OneAmberFinch · 12/09/2025 22:31

@Ereshkigalangcleg is right though that the "lol LFG who's next" from the left does cast a political light regardless of the motives of the killer. The next "terminally online, not politically motivated" killer surely is going to be influenced by the meme value of that.

How the tragic event is used is likely to have not much to do with what happened and what its actual causes were.

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2025 22:37

OneAmberFinch · 12/09/2025 22:31

@Ereshkigalangcleg is right though that the "lol LFG who's next" from the left does cast a political light regardless of the motives of the killer. The next "terminally online, not politically motivated" killer surely is going to be influenced by the meme value of that.

The 'who's next' named a wide range from left to right really.

It's more like 'lol who shall we kill next for shits and giggles' than anything more coherent.

It's anarchist. It nihilistic. It's anti-establish. It's anti-society. It's more 'can we start a war between the left and right?' rather than being OF the left or right.

I dunno. People who get mixed up in 4chan are generally fucked in the head before getting sucked in. It's almost as if it's a prequestic requirement before joining.

nomas · 12/09/2025 22:47

ThatBlackCat · 12/09/2025 20:03

Yes, they are. Toilets, as well as female facilities, affect us every single day. There is no greater struggle.

Edited

Sorry, but that’s just not true. Single sex spaces are absolutely a necessity, but in my all my years of working and living in London, I’ve never seen a transwoman in the ladies toilets.

However, I have seen racism and micro aggression against myself and other people of colour.

If you told a charity for black or Asian to centre toilets, they would laugh you out of the room.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 12/09/2025 22:49

I saw 4chan a long time ago and backed away as fast as I could. Vile place.

The horror of all this (apart from those poor children and the wife of the assassinated man) is that if it a stupid, meaningless, almost random anarchist killing - all the hate on each side and the calls for killing the right or the left is the worst aspect.

It's being blown up and magnified and why is a very good question. Where it's headed is frightening.

About the inadequate anarchists - I've spoken with one or two online. It's notable how none of them actually seem to realise that if society is overthrown they won't have their internet, nor a steady food supply, and they themselves probably won't survive very long at all in a violent world.

OneAmberFinch · 12/09/2025 22:57

nauticant · 12/09/2025 22:37

How the tragic event is used is likely to have not much to do with what happened and what its actual causes were.

Didn't say it did.

There are two distinct questions/avenues of analysis. One is untangling all the niche anarchistic online discord stuff to figure out causes; one is looking at the reaction to it to figure out events that might follow.

Don't get me wrong, I think in general there are figures on the right who are keen for "things to kick off", e.g. you see this in relation to immigration riots. But I think that in this case, from what I've observed, the "LFG" energy is coming from places like Bluesky and it's targeted primarily at "right-wing" targets (by insane progressive standards, i.e. including many pretty normal people), i.e. not really both-sides.

nomas · 12/09/2025 22:58

GoldThumb · 12/09/2025 20:19

More lies.

I didn’t ask you to denounce anything.

I told you repeatedly I was fucking appalled by the sheer number of everyday people celebrating their bloodlust. How pervasive it was.

Your enlightened response was:

‘I hardly think the TMZ crew in the US, one US analyst and one university student represent 'pervasiveness among everyday people.'

And then kept banging on about getting me to post links to these random peoples accounts, which I refused to.

Why have you assumed I was talking about you? I wasn’t referring to you, actually.

nomas · 12/09/2025 23:00

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2025 21:53

Ok, I've had a look at various explanations of these bullet casings. DHs first reaction was 4chan and that this will likely lead to a bunch of arrests of people who were on the same discord as him. There's some speculation that he was on an antifascist discord. I think that's probably what will happen but beyond that I think it's all a bit of a mess.

In terms of his politics this seems to be a point of some contention with a lot of attempts to disown him and blame 'the other side'.

There's a theory that he was a Groyper. A Groyper is a product of 4chan - they are what was the alt-right. More far right than the conservative right and have had a particular beef with Kirk and Turning Point for not being extreme enough. There's a photo of him doing the 'squatting slave meme' and much speculation about this and whether it's a form or the Pepe Meme or not. However he did call Kirk a fascist though bizarrely this apparently is something a Groyper might do. (Remember the Russians call Ukrainians fascist).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groypers

This would fit with his background of being a conservative and coming from a family who were into guns. But this doesn't tally with family accounts of becoming more political lately and criticised Kirk for spreading hate. Nor does it tally with his supposed membership of the Democratic Socialists of America (far left group) which photos suggest.

Then there's another take.

The reference Bella Ciao is supposed to be an antifascist reference and that he was far left. Which does fit with family accounts and the above political leanings.

Then there's a third, and although more difficult explanation. That he was a gamer who was brainwashed by violence and didn't have particularly set politics and instead was deeply embedded into online culture and detached from a particular position. Instead he had in effect rejected all religious and felt that life had no meaning. A form of hopeless rather than more of a coherent ideological belief. This actually perhaps more sense than the previous too.

A confused kid reading all kinds of extreme internet bollocks and not really understanding much of it fully thus picking up a range of different 'funny' shit (which isn't funny). 4chan isn't necessarily right or left wing - it's this weird mix of extremist, chaotic, simply troll crap for the lols which doesn't necessarily make much sense. It's more bothered about shit posting and winding up people than being organised and having an overarching political view. It's deeply misogynistic, extreme and offensive and that really the only points.

Notably both me and DH were going wtf at the press conference earlier about how amateur and ill thought out his assassination plan was. The word I used was that he sounded like a complete n00b. ("N00b" is an alternative, derogatory spelling of the slang term "newbie" or "noob," which refers to someone inexperienced or unskilled in a particular activity, especially online.) Its grossly naive, but probably seems very clever to him. It just makes no sense though in terms of how he planned it. It just seems like someone 'playing' at gaming in the real world and seeing if he could get away with it. Almost for fun and no other really deep reasoning. It has this feeling that he could no longer tell the real world from the online world and the fantasy in his head was that he could get away with it.

So option perhaps actually makes the most sense to me, but if that's the case then the world is going to have some fun trying to remotely understand Kirk's murder as far from having great significant political meaning, it's really a utterly meaningless waste of life and pretty anarchistic in practice. I'm not sure the world could cope with this explanation if it's the closest to reality.

Here a summary of this last theory in a bit more depth.

Leila AT LeilaClaire
I don’t want to be the first person to point this out, but to gamers “Bella Ciao” was not a song sung by “anti-fascists” but a collectible and the background music in a main quest in Far Cry 6, which is probably REAL relevant given his other gaming references

Zaid Jilani AT ZaidJilani
This is going to expose me as a gamer but both the arrows and the fascist reference they mention for the shooters ammo are direct references to the video game Helldivers 2 and are common memes.

Meaning extremely online gamer type, less so political manifesto.

I assume some FBI boomer saw these and doesn’t play video games and thought to himself oh that must be a transgender, antifa thing and that’s how we got the WSJ story

This is why the FBI and WSJ should employ more gamers.

Helldivers 2 is basically a satire like starship troopers it’s all tongue in cheek.

I’m not saying he doesn’t have any political ideology but if I had to guess the fact he scrawled internet memes on his stuff puts him more into the online nihilist camp and any politics is secondary.

And I think this studio is gonna have to put out a statement within 24 hours

Our first Video Game Extremist

No, I don't think video games make people violent. Disturbed people probably spend a lot of time indoors doing lonely activities though and so it became a cultural means for him to express his violence.

I genuinely don't know, but I get the sense that I'm not convinced this is as simplistic and black and white as people would like it to be or that it appeared on the initial surface. I'm open minded about where this heads now.

The only conclusion I draw is that he was mixed up with online communities that are fucked in the head and that's about as far as I get.

Bloody hell, it’s like a whole other world.

As if the world doesn’t have enough to contend with, we now have moe niche fears.

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