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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women’s privacy and dignity

1000 replies

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 07/09/2025 13:43

I’ve just been to my local leisure centre swimming pool and while I was in the changing rooms a woman walked in from the showers, fully naked. I averted my eyes, and she walked quite close past me in a way which to me (and I fully accept I may well have imagined it) felt a bit pointed. I felt vaguely uncomfortable and embarrassed in the same way I would have if a man had walked in naked.

My impression is that the vast majority of people on this forum believe that it is a fundamental breach of women’s privacy and dignity if people with male biology (whether cisgender men or trans women) share changing facilities with women. Yet they do not consider that it undermines a woman’s privacy or dignity to have to get changed in front of other women, or to see other women naked.

I understand that many women have had experiences with men’s exhibitionist or voyeuristic behaviour which makes them specifically uncomfortable being undressed around men, or being around men who are undressed. But I’ve often seen the argument on here that it equally undermines men’s privacy and dignity to have to share changing facilities with women.

So my question is, do you think privacy and dignity are not infringed by having to get changed in front of people of the same sex? If not, why not?

OP posts:
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/09/2025 13:24

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 09/09/2025 13:20

It's very easy for a small number to increase by 11%.

I'd like to know how many hate crimes have been committed against women over the same period. Any ideas?

Miss, miss, I can answer. Is it “zero”? Because misogyny doesn’t count as a hate crime! It would probably be one of the largest hate crime categories, if not the largest, if it did.

Helleofabore · 09/09/2025 13:24

That is concerning.

Would you now like to post the crimes against female people, that happen because they are identified by the people harming them as being female people so we can see those too. And compare.

Because posting data such as this is fucking meaningless.

What we do know is that female people suffer huge numbers of harmful incidents against them. And that most of those incidents are not even evaluated by surveys because it would just be so overwhelming it would be meaningless data. I predict the % of female people reporting incidents against them would be nearly 100% and a small fraction will have been reported or recorded in any way.

There is no mechanism to report for misogyny.

I mean, there is just another way female people are being discriminated against, isn't it. Data like this is being collected and publicised, where as the same incidents against female people just because they are female ... no one bothers.

TLDR: So... what is the point of this link?

Female people have a need to have single sex provisions to protect them from harm. Those provisions need to exclude all male people above the age of about 8 years old. Yes. There are incidents of 'hostility towards sexual orientation and transgender identity' . There are incidents of hostility towards female people based on them being female too.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 09/09/2025 13:25

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 13:23

There's this thing called 'google AI' two clicks..

AI Overview

"In the UK, there are convictions for individual hate crimes against transgender people, though official, consolidated statistics are limited and often included in broader hate crime data. Law enforcement agencies in the UK do record and investigate such incidents, but these convictions are typically classified under broader categories rather than a specific "transgender hate crime" conviction type."

Oh dear….

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2022-to-2023/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2022-to-2023

You’ve already covered this in the Guardian post.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 09/09/2025 13:26

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/09/2025 13:24

Miss, miss, I can answer. Is it “zero”? Because misogyny doesn’t count as a hate crime! It would probably be one of the largest hate crime categories, if not the largest, if it did.

Correct.

In the eyes of the law, a crime committed against a boring old AFAB cisgender woman is not as serious as the same crime committed against a stunning and brave woman with a penis.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 09/09/2025 13:26

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 09/09/2025 13:20

It's very easy for a small number to increase by 11%.

I'd like to know how many hate crimes have been committed against women over the same period. Any ideas?

There is no such thing as a hate crime committed against women. See below from the Home Office report on hate crimes.

A hate crime is any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person to be motivated by a hostility or prejudice based on:

  • a person’s race or perceived race, or any racial group or ethnic background including countries within the UK and Gypsy and Traveller groups; this includes asylum seekers and migrants
  • a person’s religion or perceived religion, or any religious group including those who have no faith
  • a person’s sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation, or any person’s sexual orientation
  • a person’s disability or perceived disability, or any disability including physical disability, learning disability and mental health or developmental disorders
  • a person who is transgender or perceived to be transgender, including people who are transsexual, transgender, cross dressers and those who hold a Gender Recognition Certificate under the Gender Recognition Act 2004
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/hate-crime-england-and-wales-year-ending-march-2024/hate-crime-england-and-wales-year-ending-march-2024

Hate crime, England and Wales, year ending March 2024

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/hate-crime-england-and-wales-year-ending-march-2024/hate-crime-england-and-wales-year-ending-march-2024

Helleofabore · 09/09/2025 13:26

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 09/09/2025 13:17

Did you not read the bit below the headline?

’Increase of 11% in recorded incidents may be due to comments in media and by politicians, says Home Office report’ 😂😂

’Increase of 11% in recorded incidents may be due to comments in media and by politicians, says Home Office report’

Imagine not reading the links before posting them...

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/09/2025 13:26

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 13:23

There's this thing called 'google AI' two clicks..

AI Overview

"In the UK, there are convictions for individual hate crimes against transgender people, though official, consolidated statistics are limited and often included in broader hate crime data. Law enforcement agencies in the UK do record and investigate such incidents, but these convictions are typically classified under broader categories rather than a specific "transgender hate crime" conviction type."

Oh dear….

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2022-to-2023/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2022-to-2023

Yes, using AI because you can’t form your own arguments coherently seems to be where you’re going wrong. It’s not something we generally need to do here, because we know what we’re talking about. A quaint, old fashioned concept, I realise.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 09/09/2025 13:26

PrettyDamnCosmic · 09/09/2025 13:26

There is no such thing as a hate crime committed against women. See below from the Home Office report on hate crimes.

A hate crime is any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person to be motivated by a hostility or prejudice based on:

  • a person’s race or perceived race, or any racial group or ethnic background including countries within the UK and Gypsy and Traveller groups; this includes asylum seekers and migrants
  • a person’s religion or perceived religion, or any religious group including those who have no faith
  • a person’s sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation, or any person’s sexual orientation
  • a person’s disability or perceived disability, or any disability including physical disability, learning disability and mental health or developmental disorders
  • a person who is transgender or perceived to be transgender, including people who are transsexual, transgender, cross dressers and those who hold a Gender Recognition Certificate under the Gender Recognition Act 2004
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/hate-crime-england-and-wales-year-ending-march-2024/hate-crime-england-and-wales-year-ending-march-2024

I know that. I was hoping @Howseitgoin would answer the question.

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 13:27

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/09/2025 13:26

Yes, using AI because you can’t form your own arguments coherently seems to be where you’re going wrong. It’s not something we generally need to do here, because we know what we’re talking about. A quaint, old fashioned concept, I realise.

Lol, is this for real?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 09/09/2025 13:28

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 13:27

Lol, is this for real?

Yes, we really do know what we're talking about.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 09/09/2025 13:28

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 09/09/2025 13:26

I know that. I was hoping @Howseitgoin would answer the question.

You are optimistic. He hasn't answered any of the other questions.😀

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 09/09/2025 13:29

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 13:27

Lol, is this for real?

Lol, yes it really is.

RedToothBrush · 09/09/2025 13:30

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 09/09/2025 13:26

I know that. I was hoping @Howseitgoin would answer the question.

Never does.

Seen that before somewhere.

eqpi4t2hbsnktd · 09/09/2025 13:30

I don't feel violently threatened by a random ladies muff.

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 13:30

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 09/09/2025 13:28

Yes, we really do know what we're talking about.

Yup, evidence really gets in the way of a good yarn…😂

Helleofabore · 09/09/2025 13:31

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 13:23

There's this thing called 'google AI' two clicks..

AI Overview

"In the UK, there are convictions for individual hate crimes against transgender people, though official, consolidated statistics are limited and often included in broader hate crime data. Law enforcement agencies in the UK do record and investigate such incidents, but these convictions are typically classified under broader categories rather than a specific "transgender hate crime" conviction type."

Oh dear….

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2022-to-2023/hate-crime-england-and-wales-2022-to-2023

Oh dear…. alright.

Do you realise that misogyny isn't a hate crime in this country?

So... what is it that you are trying to say here? That because a group of people has hate crimes targeting them, they should be able to access female single sex spaces?

While fucking ignoring that if misogyny was a hate crime, it would overwhelm these statistics. What then? Do we have to wait for misogyny to be a hate crime so that female people can finally be able to have provisions that exclude male people? Really?

Again, what is the point of your links?

The deficits in your arguments are showing a level of desperation here.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 09/09/2025 13:31

PrettyDamnCosmic · 09/09/2025 13:28

You are optimistic. He hasn't answered any of the other questions.😀

Indeed.

It is outrageous though.

We are all supposed to be equal in the eyes of the law and yet JK Rowling would get more jail time for murdering India Willoughby than India Willoughby would get for murdering JK Rowling.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/09/2025 13:31

“Evidence” 🤣

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 09/09/2025 13:31

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 13:30

Yup, evidence really gets in the way of a good yarn…😂

How would we know when you haven’t provided any?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 09/09/2025 13:32

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 13:30

Yup, evidence really gets in the way of a good yarn…😂

Where's that evidence of trans identifying men being harmed in men's toilets in the UK then please?

Oh, riiiiight. There isn't any.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/09/2025 13:32

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 09/09/2025 13:31

Indeed.

It is outrageous though.

We are all supposed to be equal in the eyes of the law and yet JK Rowling would get more jail time for murdering India Willoughby than India Willoughby would get for murdering JK Rowling.

It really is stark when you put it like that.

Tontostitis · 09/09/2025 13:32

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 12:13

I don't respond because my issue isn't with toilet design rather the pros & cons of trans people being unable to use the toilet of their gender given that they are of a substantially increased risk of abuse by men & research of public toilets where laws allow them shows that they aren't a risk to women.

I note you suggest unisex toilets are problematic but with the new UK ruling that kind of puts trans people at an increased risk if they can't even have access to those.

Then Trans people need to campaign for their own toilets not take ours.

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 13:33

PrettyDamnCosmic · 09/09/2025 13:28

You are optimistic. He hasn't answered any of the other questions.😀

'he'

'It's a 'he' 'cause a 'she' would never disagree…or depend on evidence'

Feminists of the world unite! 🤡

Keeptoiletssafe · 09/09/2025 13:33

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 12:13

I don't respond because my issue isn't with toilet design rather the pros & cons of trans people being unable to use the toilet of their gender given that they are of a substantially increased risk of abuse by men & research of public toilets where laws allow them shows that they aren't a risk to women.

I note you suggest unisex toilets are problematic but with the new UK ruling that kind of puts trans people at an increased risk if they can't even have access to those.

Women and children (both sexes) are of increased risk of abuse by men.

Your issue is you don’t understand that design changes when toilets are not single sex.

Read my post carefully.

I have looked into what people who don’t want to use the toilet of their sex have said. A lot of young women don’t want to use mens toilets. They say they smell, they are dirty and scary.

They want mixed sex toilets. These are not as safe because of the private design. I have many accounts of the mixed sex/gender neutral/ unisex/ universal (all the same thing) toilets being used for sex, drugs and misused. I have accounts of girls and young women having to put up with these toilets or if they get too disgusted/scared they go back to using the women’s toilets.

In contrast, in general, men who don’t want to use mens toilets want to use women’s toilets. Some men are keen to post pictures of themselves in women’s toilets.

Robin Moira White calls mixed sex toilets ‘ghettos’. Depending on location, I agree some are revolting and dangerous. But the point Robin Moira White doesn’t get is by being in the women’s it means all the cubicle designs end up being private. The area in front of the cubicle is mixed sex when Robin is in the women's so the cubicle itself has to have a private design with all the health and safety disadvantages of a unisex one (plus not having an advantage of its own sink and dryer). It is therefore disadvantaging everyone’s health and safety.

‘I don't respond because my issue isn't with toilet design rather the pros & cons of trans people being unable to use the toilet of their gender’ My issue is keeping trans people safe. In short and to misquote Mr Jagger: They may not get want they want but they get what they need.

Think about it this way: if a trans person is having a cardiac arrest, a seizure, a hypo, has OD’ed, is being attacked, is having a mental health crisis, a choking fit, an asthma attack, a stroke etc are they better being in a toilet design where someone can see they have ended up on the floor and hear what’s going on, or a private sound-resistant cubicle? If you think the answer is the first design, trans people are best in the toilet of their sex not gender. Hopefully this will never happen to them but it keeps everyone safe.

If we are looking at protecting the most vulnerable then people need to use the toilets for their sex.

Do you understand it now?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 09/09/2025 13:34

Howseitgoin · 09/09/2025 13:33

'he'

'It's a 'he' 'cause a 'she' would never disagree…or depend on evidence'

Feminists of the world unite! 🤡

Women who prioritise trans identifying men over members of their own sex tend to take a different tone. It's more "be kind" rather than "me me me".

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