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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gay men and surrogacy - the new “be kind”?

714 replies

Tootingbec · 06/09/2025 21:27

Just seen a LinkedIn post from a gay man who is writing a book about the surrogacy “journey” he and his husband went through. Cue gushing comments about how amazing this is…..

It has really upset me. The sheer fucking privilege of gay men to buy babies and then be lauded and praised for it like they were super heroes. And untouchable to criticism due to blinkered “be kind” beliefs about the poor gay men who just want a family like heterosexual men.

Where do people think these babies come from? Do you think people delude themselves that all these gay men just have kind, altruistic female friends who happily have a baby for them? As opposed to exploiting vulnerable and desperate women in India, Mexico and the like.

I feel so angry - women are just fucked over and abused time and time again by men and it is all dressed up as progressive when it is the exact opposite.

When I was a younger women I loved having gay men in my social circle. They seemed like “nicer” more lovely men than most straight men. Now I realise that underneath it all they just the same sexist, privileged tossers as many straight men are. They want a baby? No problem - buy one! They want to invade women’s spaces? No problem - just reinvent yourself as “the most vulnerable in society”!

It’s like the scales have fallen from my eyes.

OP posts:
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Arran2024 · 08/09/2025 13:35

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 13:27

So firstly, yes, you are right about contact being encouraged. Many adopters, however, as you probably know, struggle with the reality of that. Of course in some cases, contact is met with good engagement from birth families and can work well. In some very rare cases, in person engagement can safely happen. But for many more of us, contact is shouting into the void. We still (most of us) persist because we want to be able to look our kids in the eye and tell them we tried.

But the other thing here is that there is no real way to police the issue of contact. If you have a surrogate who is unwilling to engage in that (for very obviously reasons usually - surrogacy is usually entered into on the basis of a clean break) then there is really no way of enforcing that, just as there isn't in the case of adoption.

I don't think surrogacy 'ignores' these issues at all. Questions of how the identities of children born through surrogacy can be supported, how contact can be encouraged and supported if that is the wish are genuine and real issues. The problem with those who leap on the 'ban it everywhere' wagon is that those issues can't be considered.

The new contact is going to be court mandated so adopters will have no option.

I'm not in favour. I responded to the Gov consultation to express my concerns which I suggest are similar to yours.

Imo it will be a disaster, partly of course but birth parents in the UK are not always going to be co-operative or put the child's needs first.

And also, a lot of the contact will be with other family members like siblings or aunts and uncles. A lot will be on zoom.

Anyway the adoptees want it so the Gov has acted.

And it is just not even on the agenda when it comes to surrogacy. All the agenda for surrogacy is how to make it easier for commissioning parents - names straight on the birth certificate, that sort of thing.

The whole thing needs to be remodelled imo.

OldCrone · 08/09/2025 13:38

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 13:27

So firstly, yes, you are right about contact being encouraged. Many adopters, however, as you probably know, struggle with the reality of that. Of course in some cases, contact is met with good engagement from birth families and can work well. In some very rare cases, in person engagement can safely happen. But for many more of us, contact is shouting into the void. We still (most of us) persist because we want to be able to look our kids in the eye and tell them we tried.

But the other thing here is that there is no real way to police the issue of contact. If you have a surrogate who is unwilling to engage in that (for very obviously reasons usually - surrogacy is usually entered into on the basis of a clean break) then there is really no way of enforcing that, just as there isn't in the case of adoption.

I don't think surrogacy 'ignores' these issues at all. Questions of how the identities of children born through surrogacy can be supported, how contact can be encouraged and supported if that is the wish are genuine and real issues. The problem with those who leap on the 'ban it everywhere' wagon is that those issues can't be considered.

Questions of how the identities of children born through surrogacy can be supported, how contact can be encouraged and supported if that is the wish are genuine and real issues. The problem with those who leap on the 'ban it everywhere' wagon is that those issues can't be considered.

I'd like to start from a different starting point. If surrogacy was a new idea, what would be the arguments for introducing it? Who benefits? Who could be harmed?

logiccalls · 08/09/2025 13:39

RedToothBrush · 08/09/2025 13:02

I had a conversation with a gay man not so long ago about the 'LGBT community'. He said in a sense there wasn't a single LGBT community. There were lesbians that had their own closed community in which gay men didn't have a role. And there was a similar gay community. He thought there was actually a limited gay and lesbian community in which they mixed as a group as their social circles didn't interact as much as straight people perceived.

I've also heard this that assumption homosexual male sexuality was the same but the opposite to homosexual female sexuality was flawed.

He's also strayed into comments about never failing to underestimate the fetishists of gay men which is something echoed here.

I have to say I've probably fallen onto the trap of thinking along those lines and making those assumptions and over looking these points.

There's nothing homophobic in this, it's just a fundamental lack of understanding lesbians and gays and their communities because we have some rather lazy attitudes about it and aren't part of it.

I think from being on MN and listening to some of the lesbians on here, they have been driven back into the closet in an act of self protection whereas this isn't something happening to gay men in quite the same way and this being something of an important factor in perceptions.

I think there are political implications from this. Complaints about Stonewall falling to represent the interests of lesbians and gay men being oblivious to this and being late to realise what was happening seem to echo that.

So yes I think perhaps have a conversation about echo chambers / restricted social circles within the gay and lesbian community and perhaps there being an issue that paths only crossing in limited circumstances (the notable one being having offspring) perhaps is something of political acknowledgement and discussion for various reasons.

Even the T always being represented on TV by prominent transwomen is notable. Aside from Steven Whittle where are all the transmen?

The idea of 'representing the LGBT community' potentially is one which is a total myth and about as coherent as a Muslim representing the Jamaican Community just because they arent white. This isn't to say it can't be done - lots of straight, white people represent minority groups within their community successfully because they have to make the effort to listen - the problem is we assume that it's being done on the basis of lumping everyone together rather than assessing how accurate that claim of representing the community actually is and whether they do actually listen to the other minorities.

It all circles around to the reoccurring concept of the invisible women...

... And going back to the OP surrogacy itself very much has this problem...

...and how gender neutralising everything and assuming that men and women think the same and have the same interests and same goals and world views is a mistake as much as we want to have equality.

It raises difficult questions for feminism itself and what we understand to be equality.

But yes, it merits it own thread.

Edited

Thank you for the answer. Especially the third to last sentence "gender neutralising everything...... is a mistake, as much as we want to have equality"

Well said, thanks. Females and males are completely different, in every cell and brain wiring system.

That's even greater than the differences between able-bodied people * and weakened, impaired or ill people.
Equality is not provided for a wheelchair-user, by declaring s/he is 'permitted' to enter a building via a flight of steps (!)

*Or, 'T.A.B.S. i.e. Temporarily Able-Bodied's'. Only temporarily, because few humans reach the end of life without even a short term injury or impairment.

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 13:42

OldCrone · 08/09/2025 13:38

Questions of how the identities of children born through surrogacy can be supported, how contact can be encouraged and supported if that is the wish are genuine and real issues. The problem with those who leap on the 'ban it everywhere' wagon is that those issues can't be considered.

I'd like to start from a different starting point. If surrogacy was a new idea, what would be the arguments for introducing it? Who benefits? Who could be harmed?

But its not a new idea. It exists.

So the question is how do we best protect everyone involved. Banning it is a perfectly legitimate answer to that, albeit one I disagree with in principle but more importantly I just don't think will work in practice.

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 13:44

OldCrone · 08/09/2025 13:38

Questions of how the identities of children born through surrogacy can be supported, how contact can be encouraged and supported if that is the wish are genuine and real issues. The problem with those who leap on the 'ban it everywhere' wagon is that those issues can't be considered.

I'd like to start from a different starting point. If surrogacy was a new idea, what would be the arguments for introducing it? Who benefits? Who could be harmed?

Well, (disregarding the evidence of surrogacy dating back thousands of years across cultures and religions), you might as well ask - if childbirth was a new idea what would be the arguments for introducing it, who benefits and who could be harmed?

Childbirth is harmful to women. There are children who are brought up in horrific circumstances by their birth parents, and they are harmed.

OldCrone · 08/09/2025 13:46

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 13:42

But its not a new idea. It exists.

So the question is how do we best protect everyone involved. Banning it is a perfectly legitimate answer to that, albeit one I disagree with in principle but more importantly I just don't think will work in practice.

But if you don't want to ban it, you should have answers to my questions to support your argument for not banning it against those of us who think it should be banned. Who benefits from this arrangement? Who could be harmed?

OldCrone · 08/09/2025 13:48

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 13:44

Well, (disregarding the evidence of surrogacy dating back thousands of years across cultures and religions), you might as well ask - if childbirth was a new idea what would be the arguments for introducing it, who benefits and who could be harmed?

Childbirth is harmful to women. There are children who are brought up in horrific circumstances by their birth parents, and they are harmed.

Ridiculous.

We'd die out pretty quickly if childbirth was banned. It can't be a new idea since it's how we all came to exist in the first place.

cosimarama · 08/09/2025 13:49

OP demonstrated how her own previous positive generalisations of gay men are what she feels is now mirrored in society to the point that any criticisms of specific actions some gay men take - surrogacy - is exempt from scrutiny.

She used to view their sexual orientation as somehow giving them a special status above heterosexual men but now believes gay men are men.

Not sure Mumsnet will survive if it bans women criticising the actions of men.

If she was against gay men raising children they hadn’t commissioned/bought (their own, stepkids, adopted kids) ‘because gay’ that would be different.

But as pps pointed out, unlike straight or lesbian couples who may not shout about buying/commissioning a baby, gay men can’t just appear with one in society or on social media without people asking where the baby came from. Her post was prompted by another social media announcement.

Presumably if she had seen a multitude of social posts from straight or lesbian couples who had commissioned a woman to have a baby she would also have viewed them as sexist, privileged tossers given that they are buying/being gifted access to an anonymous birth mother who is at the most risk physically and mentally from carrying a child who will be handed over.

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 13:50

Arran2024 · 08/09/2025 13:35

The new contact is going to be court mandated so adopters will have no option.

I'm not in favour. I responded to the Gov consultation to express my concerns which I suggest are similar to yours.

Imo it will be a disaster, partly of course but birth parents in the UK are not always going to be co-operative or put the child's needs first.

And also, a lot of the contact will be with other family members like siblings or aunts and uncles. A lot will be on zoom.

Anyway the adoptees want it so the Gov has acted.

And it is just not even on the agenda when it comes to surrogacy. All the agenda for surrogacy is how to make it easier for commissioning parents - names straight on the birth certificate, that sort of thing.

The whole thing needs to be remodelled imo.

I agree with most of that. There are important differences though. First, children who are adopted (in the classic court ordered adoption rather than step parent adoption etc) will have no biological connection to either of their parents. That's not the case with surrogacy.

Second, many adoptees will have had relationships of and memories of birth parents, birth siblings, birth grandparents etc. These will often be the only people who can answer questions about early childhood as they get older - what was my first word? First step? etc

I fully agree that discussions of surrogacy should be had through the lens you are talking about - how can it work best to protect everyone involved. We should be listening to the voices of gestational mothers, egg donors, intended parents and children and adults conceived through surrogacy as part of that.

But the issue when discussed on here vilifies intended parents, infantilises gestational mothers and egg donors, and pathologises children born through surrogacy (and often, by implication, adopted children).

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 13:56

OldCrone · 08/09/2025 13:46

But if you don't want to ban it, you should have answers to my questions to support your argument for not banning it against those of us who think it should be banned. Who benefits from this arrangement? Who could be harmed?

Well no. I also don't want to ban adultery. I don't think it falls to me to engage in the debate on your terms.

What I do think we need to recognise is that we live in a society where biological parents who do not meet a fairly high threshold of being unfit will always have rights in respect of their children. We also live in a society in which those rights can be voluntarily given up.

So I simply don't understand what actual proposition anyone would have for how you could actually ban surrogacy which, at its heart, is a man impregnating a woman with the intention that he, and not she, will raise the child (with or without a partner). How is that arrangement going to be banned in practice?

buffyajp · 08/09/2025 14:02

Throneofgame · 06/09/2025 23:13

In your view, how should gay couples have a child?

Adoption or fostering. The same as other infertile couples. There are already so many existing unwanted children in this world but nobody wants them. They all want a cutesy perfect baby.

OriginalUsername2 · 08/09/2025 14:02

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 13:42

But its not a new idea. It exists.

So the question is how do we best protect everyone involved. Banning it is a perfectly legitimate answer to that, albeit one I disagree with in principle but more importantly I just don't think will work in practice.

It’s not about 50 years old isn’t it? That’s fairly new in the big scheme of things.

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 14:03

OriginalUsername2 · 08/09/2025 14:02

It’s not about 50 years old isn’t it? That’s fairly new in the big scheme of things.

No. There is plenty of evidence of surrogacy going back to antiquity.

OriginalUsername2 · 08/09/2025 14:05

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 14:03

No. There is plenty of evidence of surrogacy going back to antiquity.

Well yeah, but I mean a regulated market.

buffyajp · 08/09/2025 14:07

Throneofgame · 06/09/2025 23:33

What nonsense. And what's worse, there is a definite undercurrent of homophobia running through your comments. Not sure why you're being so hostile to gay people.

Do you think that infertile straight couples should have to share their child with a fertile woman? Why should any couple, gay or straight, be forced into co-parenting just to have a child?

Adoption can be very difficult and isn't suitable for many people.

Thank goodness people like you don't get let anywhere near actual decision making.

Absolute bullshit. The baby/ child is what matters most in this regardless of sexual orientation. People do not have a right to have a child as sad as that reality may be. How dare you accuse people of homophobia just because they stand up for a child being ripped apart at birth from its mother. The priority is the child NOT the rights of the couple concerned.No one has said gay men shouldn’t be allowed to be parents. I don’t agree with surrogacy regardless of the circumstances and that does NOT make me homophobic.

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 14:09

buffyajp · 08/09/2025 14:02

Adoption or fostering. The same as other infertile couples. There are already so many existing unwanted children in this world but nobody wants them. They all want a cutesy perfect baby.

Please do not talk about adopted kids in this way. Adoption is not a consolation prize for infertile couples or gay couples. And adopted kids are not 'unwanted'.

RedToothBrush · 08/09/2025 14:11

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 14:03

No. There is plenty of evidence of surrogacy going back to antiquity.

Well that makes it ok then.

Bring back slavery! Yay!

(And look here's an opportunity to misrepresent as racism. Get stuck in)

Rednorth · 08/09/2025 14:22

Arran2024 · 08/09/2025 13:35

The new contact is going to be court mandated so adopters will have no option.

I'm not in favour. I responded to the Gov consultation to express my concerns which I suggest are similar to yours.

Imo it will be a disaster, partly of course but birth parents in the UK are not always going to be co-operative or put the child's needs first.

And also, a lot of the contact will be with other family members like siblings or aunts and uncles. A lot will be on zoom.

Anyway the adoptees want it so the Gov has acted.

And it is just not even on the agenda when it comes to surrogacy. All the agenda for surrogacy is how to make it easier for commissioning parents - names straight on the birth certificate, that sort of thing.

The whole thing needs to be remodelled imo.

The irony of putting these laws into place when wider family services budgets have been decimated... Without a well funded/ resourced support network in place to support both the adoptive family and the birth family it's, as you say, a disaster waiting to happen.

drspouse · 08/09/2025 14:29

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 13:27

So firstly, yes, you are right about contact being encouraged. Many adopters, however, as you probably know, struggle with the reality of that. Of course in some cases, contact is met with good engagement from birth families and can work well. In some very rare cases, in person engagement can safely happen. But for many more of us, contact is shouting into the void. We still (most of us) persist because we want to be able to look our kids in the eye and tell them we tried.

But the other thing here is that there is no real way to police the issue of contact. If you have a surrogate who is unwilling to engage in that (for very obviously reasons usually - surrogacy is usually entered into on the basis of a clean break) then there is really no way of enforcing that, just as there isn't in the case of adoption.

I don't think surrogacy 'ignores' these issues at all. Questions of how the identities of children born through surrogacy can be supported, how contact can be encouraged and supported if that is the wish are genuine and real issues. The problem with those who leap on the 'ban it everywhere' wagon is that those issues can't be considered.

You are presenting this as "dreadful birth parents, they don't care about their kids, they don't want contact".
Which is the EXACT opposite of what UK, and for the most part US, adoptive parents are like.
They paint even the birth parents who are completely harmless and who children who would benefit from seeing as "a danger to my child". Rant on about how "it's MY child, how dare she, she's lost the right to be called a parent" "they look just like me" "they don't remember her so why would they need to form a relationship". Adopters used to choose to adopt from Guatemala over China as it was seen as less likely that children will find their birth parents. Vulnerable young teens find their birth family on social media and 18 year olds meet their birth family unsupported because they cannot confess to these parents who devalue their genetic origins how very much they long to connect

Surrogates who have an existing relationship with IPs e.g. sisters report being pushed out, dropped like hot cakes, upset with how their baby is being raised.

ThatBlackCat · 08/09/2025 14:35

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 10:59

Parking the obvious homophobia in a thread targetted just at surrogacy by gay men, a lot of references to adoption here really anger me.

A couple of things to point out:

-Adoption is not a consolation prize for those who cannot have a child biologically. Positing as a 'if you want a child, just adopt' is glib and ignorant.

-More fundamentally, the claims about the inherent trauma of separating a newborn from their gestational mother are fundamentally based on Primal Wound Theory, which is a theory that can be deeply stigmatising to a lot of adopted people and, crucially, is lacking in any real scientific basis. The research about children conceived through surrogacy suggests mental and emotional outcomes comparable to other children.

This is important, because if we ground policy on the primal wound theory, then when weighing the interests of children being considered for being placed in care at birth, we risk adopting a threshold of harm that is not justified by the science. If we start from the position that removal from a birth mother is inherently traumatic in a way that causes lasting harm to a child, then the threshold of harm to justify that removal must logically be higher (than it already is). That may be right if it was scientifically grounded, but it is not.

You are deliberately misrepresenting and giving misinformation. It's about being anti surrogacy in all cases, regardless of sexual orientation.

Also the Primal Wound Theory is evidenced by grounded science and practicality. So you are misinformed.

TheodoreisntBeth · 08/09/2025 14:38

And right on cue, the surrogacy lobby are having another crack at changing the law to make it easier for purchasers and harder for birth mothers:

https://x.com/WombsNotForRent/status/1964931711663571431

https://x.com/WombsNotForRent/status/1964931711663571431

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 14:39

drspouse · 08/09/2025 14:29

You are presenting this as "dreadful birth parents, they don't care about their kids, they don't want contact".
Which is the EXACT opposite of what UK, and for the most part US, adoptive parents are like.
They paint even the birth parents who are completely harmless and who children who would benefit from seeing as "a danger to my child". Rant on about how "it's MY child, how dare she, she's lost the right to be called a parent" "they look just like me" "they don't remember her so why would they need to form a relationship". Adopters used to choose to adopt from Guatemala over China as it was seen as less likely that children will find their birth parents. Vulnerable young teens find their birth family on social media and 18 year olds meet their birth family unsupported because they cannot confess to these parents who devalue their genetic origins how very much they long to connect

Surrogates who have an existing relationship with IPs e.g. sisters report being pushed out, dropped like hot cakes, upset with how their baby is being raised.

Sorry, I'm not sure what your basis for this description of UK adoptive parents is. It is certainly not my experience of adoptive parents now - there has obviously been a step change in how people think about adoption so it may be generational.

The adopters I know try really hard to support their kids to build a balanced view about their birth families. They take the time to understand the factors that led birth families to be unable to care for their children, to explain that to their kids in age appropriate ways. Many of us spend time writing letters to birth parents, many of whom do not reply. Yes, many of us have anger at what birth families have put some of our kids through - think it would be weird if we didn't - and encourage our kids that they can feel whatever they feel about their experiences.

Your post is a gross generalisation, and unfounded based on my experience.

Most adoptive families I know involve gay or lesbian parents. I don't know if that makes a difference or not. I know some straight friends have been more disbelieving than gay friends when I describe whats involved in adoption, and I have wondered if it is because gay couples adopting can never pretend their families are just like every other - so engaging in the things that make our families different, like life story work, is less scary. Or possibly because most of us knew early on that if we had kids it would be through some non-traditional means, whereas many straight couples have come to adoption often as a plan B. Those are just theories though.

ThatBlackCat · 08/09/2025 14:39

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 11:16

The entire thread is predicated on the particular issue of gay men using surrogacy.

Here's the thing, if you direct your opposition to surrogacy primarily at gay men, even if you are in theory also opposed to it by straight couples, then that of course is homophobic.

Opposing surrogacy in itself is not homophobia. Opposing it for gay couples only, or directing your attention to gay couples only, is what is homophobia.

Or, maybe it's about males, and their disrespect of women? Not actually about them being gay, but their male behavior.

Ever thought of that? Of course not....

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 14:39

ThatBlackCat · 08/09/2025 14:35

You are deliberately misrepresenting and giving misinformation. It's about being anti surrogacy in all cases, regardless of sexual orientation.

Also the Primal Wound Theory is evidenced by grounded science and practicality. So you are misinformed.

No it's not.