Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gay men and surrogacy - the new “be kind”?

714 replies

Tootingbec · 06/09/2025 21:27

Just seen a LinkedIn post from a gay man who is writing a book about the surrogacy “journey” he and his husband went through. Cue gushing comments about how amazing this is…..

It has really upset me. The sheer fucking privilege of gay men to buy babies and then be lauded and praised for it like they were super heroes. And untouchable to criticism due to blinkered “be kind” beliefs about the poor gay men who just want a family like heterosexual men.

Where do people think these babies come from? Do you think people delude themselves that all these gay men just have kind, altruistic female friends who happily have a baby for them? As opposed to exploiting vulnerable and desperate women in India, Mexico and the like.

I feel so angry - women are just fucked over and abused time and time again by men and it is all dressed up as progressive when it is the exact opposite.

When I was a younger women I loved having gay men in my social circle. They seemed like “nicer” more lovely men than most straight men. Now I realise that underneath it all they just the same sexist, privileged tossers as many straight men are. They want a baby? No problem - buy one! They want to invade women’s spaces? No problem - just reinvent yourself as “the most vulnerable in society”!

It’s like the scales have fallen from my eyes.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 12:19

Arran2024 · 08/09/2025 11:56

Many of us are against all surrogacy but there are some pretty dystopian issues when it is used by men, gay or single men, and that's worth discussing.

Men can now have babies with zero contact with a woman. Women are potentially going to be pushed right out, as men no longer going to have to tolerate a woman in their lives to have a family. And gay men are leading the charge.

Already, some rich men are taking the position that marriage is a crazy thing to do, as it puts their money at risk. Co-habitation has risks too. Why not just use surrogates and nannies? This is already a big thing in China.

Not ok.

Anyway, you also can't discount the Primal Wound theory just like that. Doing research into babies removed at birth is extremely difficult, but we know that animals removed at birth struggle to be accepted by their fellow pack/ herd members and we know from stats that adopted people have more mental health struggles and other problems.

It might not be possible to prove Primal Wound but there is no proof against it either.

And there is little info on the effects of surrogacy. The only decent studies are the Cambridge ones, like this one, which confidently states no negatives, but only featured 22 surrogate-born families https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2023-63676-001.html

I think your dystopian nightmare point is weird and wrong. We are not going to be in a scenario where single men are lining up to become single fathers to children conceived through surrogacy because they would prefer that to being in a relationship and having a family; or because they would prefer that to being single and childless.

Might some single men who want to be fathers use surrogacy. Sure, I guess so, in theory. But the idea that it will become the norm is just bonkers.

As to the impacts...

First, you don't need to conduct the research on babies. The research needed would be the outcomes for children and adults who were separated from a birth mother at birth, controlled for other aggravating factors like substance abuse, in utero stress and DV or like multiple changes in principal caregiver. And there is simply no evidential base that supports the primal wound theory.

Babies are not pack animals, and using the very real struggles that adopted children is precisely the sort of deeply flawed and offensive argument that many of us who are parents of adopted kids wish you would not use.

RedToothBrush · 08/09/2025 12:21

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 12:15

"Maybe they should be utter jobsworths because that's a better strategy in the interests of society as a whole and wouldn't have terrible unintended consequences in its own right. What do you think?"

What do I think? I think Mumsnet are quite happy to be 'utter jobsworths' as you describe it, on some occasions during moderation and not on others. And their lack of consistency and adherence to their own stated principles is disappointing.

Would you like to virtue signal more?

Cos virtue signalling is more important than having important conversations?

Just admit shutting down MN is the ultimate goal and ensuring everywhere becomes like the Bastian of acceptability and truth that's bluesky.

I'm kinda over it tbh.

Rednorth · 08/09/2025 12:24

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 12:09

You mean like the substantive point in my first post on this thread about the primal wound theory that all but one poster has studiously ignored?

Those sort of 'very real moral issues'?

Wow. Main character syndrome much??

Maybe if you brought peer reviewed studies to the table you'd have a point... Instead you're throwing your toys out of the pram over people not responding to a quack theory 🫠

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 12:28

Rednorth · 08/09/2025 12:24

Wow. Main character syndrome much??

Maybe if you brought peer reviewed studies to the table you'd have a point... Instead you're throwing your toys out of the pram over people not responding to a quack theory 🫠

You have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

What is it you regard as a 'quack theory'?

If a poster is going to say that a poster is calling others homophobic to distract from real ethical issues with surrogacy, they are probably also better off not ignoring when that same poster sets out a substantive argument against one of the most common claims made on this issue.

Namelessnelly · 08/09/2025 12:28

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 10:59

Parking the obvious homophobia in a thread targetted just at surrogacy by gay men, a lot of references to adoption here really anger me.

A couple of things to point out:

-Adoption is not a consolation prize for those who cannot have a child biologically. Positing as a 'if you want a child, just adopt' is glib and ignorant.

-More fundamentally, the claims about the inherent trauma of separating a newborn from their gestational mother are fundamentally based on Primal Wound Theory, which is a theory that can be deeply stigmatising to a lot of adopted people and, crucially, is lacking in any real scientific basis. The research about children conceived through surrogacy suggests mental and emotional outcomes comparable to other children.

This is important, because if we ground policy on the primal wound theory, then when weighing the interests of children being considered for being placed in care at birth, we risk adopting a threshold of harm that is not justified by the science. If we start from the position that removal from a birth mother is inherently traumatic in a way that causes lasting harm to a child, then the threshold of harm to justify that removal must logically be higher (than it already is). That may be right if it was scientifically grounded, but it is not.

So you support human trafficking. That figures considering some of your other views. Is it just newborns you believe should be sold or is it people of any age? If not, why not?

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 12:29

RedToothBrush · 08/09/2025 12:21

Would you like to virtue signal more?

Cos virtue signalling is more important than having important conversations?

Just admit shutting down MN is the ultimate goal and ensuring everywhere becomes like the Bastian of acceptability and truth that's bluesky.

I'm kinda over it tbh.

You make it sound like Mumsnet is predicated on prejudice and discrimination and will cease to exist when posts exhibiting these are challenged?

logiccalls · 08/09/2025 12:30

Sorry, as a newbie I'm not sure of the routine here . At 12.07 I posted here, probably in the wrong thread, but it was something seriously thought- out for years, and maybe drowning here, unseen, among a bit of poster-to-poster communication. I would very greatly appreciate it if it could be read by someone, anyone, but particularly the legally-informed readers, RedToothBrush etc.

RedToothBrush · 08/09/2025 12:34

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 12:29

You make it sound like Mumsnet is predicated on prejudice and discrimination and will cease to exist when posts exhibiting these are challenged?

I'm sorry, I have switched off to meaningless vexatious constant smears which seek to deliberately misrepresent rather than engage with the same subject as everyone else.

Bye.

BaseDrops · 08/09/2025 12:36

logiccalls · 08/09/2025 12:30

Sorry, as a newbie I'm not sure of the routine here . At 12.07 I posted here, probably in the wrong thread, but it was something seriously thought- out for years, and maybe drowning here, unseen, among a bit of poster-to-poster communication. I would very greatly appreciate it if it could be read by someone, anyone, but particularly the legally-informed readers, RedToothBrush etc.

I think your post would get better engagement on its own thread.

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 12:36

Namelessnelly · 08/09/2025 12:28

So you support human trafficking. That figures considering some of your other views. Is it just newborns you believe should be sold or is it people of any age? If not, why not?

No, I don't support human trafficking.

I also don't think referring to a biological parent taking full custody of their child with the full consent of the other biological parent can ever be described as human trafficking, and it's both offensive and stupid to do so, and the hallmark of someone lacking a vaguely sensible argument.

Which is odd because there are actual genuinely good arguments against surrogacy, so someone would need to be truly stupid not to make any of them and go for this sort of BS instead.

Namelessnelly · 08/09/2025 12:39

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 12:29

You make it sound like Mumsnet is predicated on prejudice and discrimination and will cease to exist when posts exhibiting these are challenged?

Well first you’d have to have concrete definitions of which prejudice and discrimination wouldn’t you? Who do you believe is being discriminated against in this thread? Men who are complicit in human trafficking? Women who are complicit in human trafficking? Anyone else?

Namelessnelly · 08/09/2025 12:42

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 12:36

No, I don't support human trafficking.

I also don't think referring to a biological parent taking full custody of their child with the full consent of the other biological parent can ever be described as human trafficking, and it's both offensive and stupid to do so, and the hallmark of someone lacking a vaguely sensible argument.

Which is odd because there are actual genuinely good arguments against surrogacy, so someone would need to be truly stupid not to make any of them and go for this sort of BS instead.

so you are saying surrogates don’t get paid? Really? Surely one of the arguments put forward by people who support human trafficking of babies is that the surge is not a parent, just a womb for rent. So you can’t have it as a custody transfer if one party has no parental rights can you?

Rednorth · 08/09/2025 12:46

@PlanetJanette You are making out like everyone was talking about that quackery 'Primal Wound Theory' when in reality majority of posts on here come from informed places (and I'm sure we could all post peer reviewed evidence to back up our veiws) so to reduce the whole thread to spouting quackery as I said is just bad faith.

Never mind your narrow field of outcomes that allows you to pit Primal Wound Theory against concerns over surrogacy...(The lack of agency around birthing for one).

I mean no disrespect when I say this but it seems like your projecting here.

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 12:46

Namelessnelly · 08/09/2025 12:42

so you are saying surrogates don’t get paid? Really? Surely one of the arguments put forward by people who support human trafficking of babies is that the surge is not a parent, just a womb for rent. So you can’t have it as a custody transfer if one party has no parental rights can you?

I don't regard surrogates as having no parental rights, and where the law does so I think that law is wrong. I do think surrogates can choose, as any other parent can, to give up their parental rights when a child is born.

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 12:50

Rednorth · 08/09/2025 12:46

@PlanetJanette You are making out like everyone was talking about that quackery 'Primal Wound Theory' when in reality majority of posts on here come from informed places (and I'm sure we could all post peer reviewed evidence to back up our veiws) so to reduce the whole thread to spouting quackery as I said is just bad faith.

Never mind your narrow field of outcomes that allows you to pit Primal Wound Theory against concerns over surrogacy...(The lack of agency around birthing for one).

I mean no disrespect when I say this but it seems like your projecting here.

Edited

There are two lines of argument most advanced here against surrogacy -

(a) that it is exploitative of the gestational mother; and
(b) that it is traumatic for the baby

(b) is a direct rehash of the primal wound theory. So yes, pointing out that there is no evidence of any harm whatsoever to a baby conceived through surrogacy is a very relevant argument based on the arguments used against surrogacy on here.

Namelessnelly · 08/09/2025 12:52

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 12:46

I don't regard surrogates as having no parental rights, and where the law does so I think that law is wrong. I do think surrogates can choose, as any other parent can, to give up their parental rights when a child is born.

For a fee or course. One might almost say…. A price. You know, like selling a car or a bike. Is it only newborns you believe should be human trafficked or would you be ok with someone selling a 5 year old?

Justme56 · 08/09/2025 12:54

I don’t like surrogacy. Criticism should apply across the board. However, if one group seems to be promoting it, whilst at the same time seems to be exempt from criticism we have a problem. Too many people throw the phobia or ism into the mix to try and prevent discussion or debate and we all know where that leads.

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 12:57

Namelessnelly · 08/09/2025 12:52

For a fee or course. One might almost say…. A price. You know, like selling a car or a bike. Is it only newborns you believe should be human trafficked or would you be ok with someone selling a 5 year old?

I don't think anyone should be subject to human trafficking.

I think describing one biological parent taking full custody of their child with the full consent of the other parent as human trafficking is grossly offensive to actual victims of human trafficking.

RedToothBrush · 08/09/2025 13:02

logiccalls · 08/09/2025 12:07

The great difficulty is the Giselle Pericot paradox i.e. the banality of evil, in normal, very ordinary men, exactly like your DP DS DF, and every other man.

This would form a thesis, but , obviously, a lot of harm arises from men and women wrongly assuming the opposite sex THINKS like they do:

For example, for males, an intimate encounter with a stranger is almost always painless and with no lifelong results. So, even if most of them don't spend time seeking such opportunities, they may, at some low level, always be willing. It only takes a few minutes, and it's pleasant, so why not?

Therefore, when some men excuse themselves from using force, and say "she wanted it really" or "she will enjoy it once it starts", they may at least to a small extent genuinely not quite understand that for females it can often be the opposite, that the encounter will often be painful and could lead to pregnancy, life-changing or even fatal, which never happens to men, or to disease, which is evidently not a particular worry to men, but is more easily caught by women and can have more serious effects.

Male police, judges or juries might truly not fully comprehend that there was no consent, notably if the accused seems presentable and is without those 'monster-identifier' fangs -plus- snarling.

"She didn't consent, so she says, but... surely she would have done, wouldn't she?" Or, "She would have enjoyed it once it started, wouldn't she?" "I wouldn't turn down a chance, would you?" "It was an opportunity for a few minutes of pleasure, so why not?"

At the same time, women with fifty years of happy marriage, children, grandchildren, are not going to think it possible their DH could be a serial rapist. A woman almost needs to delude herself, rather than accept that DH could be what she prefers to think is a very rare thing; a monster, probably snarling and with fangs, as seen in story books. She won't/can't let it cross her mind that the reason her DP wanted her to have a baby, or was keen to marry her when he knew she has a baby, or wants to look after the baby, is because he wants to abuse it.

There is a collusion-in-cosy- complacency,, in the pretty world of the so-far -unaware. Expressions of shock and incredulity, and the use of words like 'monster' betray a dangerous false notion that all men think like women, therefore all men are as safe as women, to be alone with women and children.

It is only the recent fashion for men to film themselves while abusing, that has made it plain beyond doubt, with undeniable proof, that with all men, ill-intent towards prey is not inevitable, but is seldom totally impossible.

NAMALT, maybe, but the routine starting assumption would better be that All Men MIGHT be like that, given exactly the right opportunity, a good chance of getting away with it, and the unwitting abetting and collusion of deluded and non-suspicious prey, or guardians of prey, or makers of policy, or holders of 'nice' conventional assumptions.

Edited

I had a conversation with a gay man not so long ago about the 'LGBT community'. He said in a sense there wasn't a single LGBT community. There were lesbians that had their own closed community in which gay men didn't have a role. And there was a similar gay community. He thought there was actually a limited gay and lesbian community in which they mixed as a group as their social circles didn't interact as much as straight people perceived.

I've also heard this that assumption homosexual male sexuality was the same but the opposite to homosexual female sexuality was flawed.

He's also strayed into comments about never failing to underestimate the fetishists of gay men which is something echoed here.

I have to say I've probably fallen onto the trap of thinking along those lines and making those assumptions and over looking these points.

There's nothing homophobic in this, it's just a fundamental lack of understanding lesbians and gays and their communities because we have some rather lazy attitudes about it and aren't part of it.

I think from being on MN and listening to some of the lesbians on here, they have been driven back into the closet in an act of self protection whereas this isn't something happening to gay men in quite the same way and this being something of an important factor in perceptions.

I think there are political implications from this. Complaints about Stonewall falling to represent the interests of lesbians and gay men being oblivious to this and being late to realise what was happening seem to echo that.

So yes I think perhaps have a conversation about echo chambers / restricted social circles within the gay and lesbian community and perhaps there being an issue that paths only crossing in limited circumstances (the notable one being having offspring) perhaps is something of political acknowledgement and discussion for various reasons.

Even the T always being represented on TV by prominent transwomen is notable. Aside from Steven Whittle where are all the transmen?

The idea of 'representing the LGBT community' potentially is one which is a total myth and about as coherent as a Muslim representing the Jamaican Community just because they arent white. This isn't to say it can't be done - lots of straight, white people represent minority groups within their community successfully because they have to make the effort to listen - the problem is we assume that it's being done on the basis of lumping everyone together rather than assessing how accurate that claim of representing the community actually is and whether they do actually listen to the other minorities.

It all circles around to the reoccurring concept of the invisible women...

... And going back to the OP surrogacy itself very much has this problem...

...and how gender neutralising everything and assuming that men and women think the same and have the same interests and same goals and world views is a mistake as much as we want to have equality.

It raises difficult questions for feminism itself and what we understand to be equality.

But yes, it merits it own thread.

Arran2024 · 08/09/2025 13:16

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 12:19

I think your dystopian nightmare point is weird and wrong. We are not going to be in a scenario where single men are lining up to become single fathers to children conceived through surrogacy because they would prefer that to being in a relationship and having a family; or because they would prefer that to being single and childless.

Might some single men who want to be fathers use surrogacy. Sure, I guess so, in theory. But the idea that it will become the norm is just bonkers.

As to the impacts...

First, you don't need to conduct the research on babies. The research needed would be the outcomes for children and adults who were separated from a birth mother at birth, controlled for other aggravating factors like substance abuse, in utero stress and DV or like multiple changes in principal caregiver. And there is simply no evidential base that supports the primal wound theory.

Babies are not pack animals, and using the very real struggles that adopted children is precisely the sort of deeply flawed and offensive argument that many of us who are parents of adopted kids wish you would not use.

As it happens I AM an adopter so I feel perfectly able to discuss Primal Wound theory. I have read both of Nancy Verrier's books and saw her speak in person in London about 15 years ago, where the audience was full of adoptees who absolutely bought into what she was saying.

But most children placed for adoption in the UK have not experienced Primal wound, because hardly any of them were removed at birth, and even those who were, would have had regular contact with birth mum up until the adoption placement.

Primal wound is much more relevant in US style adoptions where babies are handed over shortly after birth. And this is what happens in surrogacy. So it is worth exploring.

But back to the UK, policy makers have made it clear recently that adopted children are to have more contact with birth family. And they are doing this primarily because of demands from adoptees, who want their wishes taken into account, but also because it makes ethical and moral sense.

And so it is strange then that surrogacy ignores all of this.

I could see surrogacy working better with clear rules about the children having rights to contact with the surrogate. But as it's seen as purely a transaction, that's not on the table.

But also, re my dystopian vision, why not? 20 years ago no one thought Lia Thomas would be swimming in a woman's team. Things change and we need to be alert.

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 13:18

Namelessnelly · 08/09/2025 12:39

Well first you’d have to have concrete definitions of which prejudice and discrimination wouldn’t you? Who do you believe is being discriminated against in this thread? Men who are complicit in human trafficking? Women who are complicit in human trafficking? Anyone else?

I was replying to the poster who asserted I am trying to shut down Mumsnet simply for reporting posts that fall foul of Mumsnet's own moderating principles.

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 13:26

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 13:18

I was replying to the poster who asserted I am trying to shut down Mumsnet simply for reporting posts that fall foul of Mumsnet's own moderating principles.

And who bizarrely sees fit to castigate me both for not reporting those posts (which was the initial erroneous belief they held) and now also for actually reporting those posts (when they were corrected and advised that I already had.)

RedToothBrush · 08/09/2025 13:27

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 13:26

And who bizarrely sees fit to castigate me both for not reporting those posts (which was the initial erroneous belief they held) and now also for actually reporting those posts (when they were corrected and advised that I already had.)

You clearly have an agenda. I'm not interested.

suggestionsplease1 · 08/09/2025 13:27

RedToothBrush · 08/09/2025 13:27

You clearly have an agenda. I'm not interested.

I'm OK with my anti-homophobia agenda, ta.

PlanetJanette · 08/09/2025 13:27

Arran2024 · 08/09/2025 13:16

As it happens I AM an adopter so I feel perfectly able to discuss Primal Wound theory. I have read both of Nancy Verrier's books and saw her speak in person in London about 15 years ago, where the audience was full of adoptees who absolutely bought into what she was saying.

But most children placed for adoption in the UK have not experienced Primal wound, because hardly any of them were removed at birth, and even those who were, would have had regular contact with birth mum up until the adoption placement.

Primal wound is much more relevant in US style adoptions where babies are handed over shortly after birth. And this is what happens in surrogacy. So it is worth exploring.

But back to the UK, policy makers have made it clear recently that adopted children are to have more contact with birth family. And they are doing this primarily because of demands from adoptees, who want their wishes taken into account, but also because it makes ethical and moral sense.

And so it is strange then that surrogacy ignores all of this.

I could see surrogacy working better with clear rules about the children having rights to contact with the surrogate. But as it's seen as purely a transaction, that's not on the table.

But also, re my dystopian vision, why not? 20 years ago no one thought Lia Thomas would be swimming in a woman's team. Things change and we need to be alert.

So firstly, yes, you are right about contact being encouraged. Many adopters, however, as you probably know, struggle with the reality of that. Of course in some cases, contact is met with good engagement from birth families and can work well. In some very rare cases, in person engagement can safely happen. But for many more of us, contact is shouting into the void. We still (most of us) persist because we want to be able to look our kids in the eye and tell them we tried.

But the other thing here is that there is no real way to police the issue of contact. If you have a surrogate who is unwilling to engage in that (for very obviously reasons usually - surrogacy is usually entered into on the basis of a clean break) then there is really no way of enforcing that, just as there isn't in the case of adoption.

I don't think surrogacy 'ignores' these issues at all. Questions of how the identities of children born through surrogacy can be supported, how contact can be encouraged and supported if that is the wish are genuine and real issues. The problem with those who leap on the 'ban it everywhere' wagon is that those issues can't be considered.