Gay men and surrogacy - the new “be kind”?

[Tootingbec]

Just seen a LinkedIn post from a gay man who is writing a book about the surrogacy “journey” he and his husband went through. Cue gushing comments about how amazing this is…..

It has really upset me. The sheer fucking privilege of gay men to buy babies and then be lauded and praised for it like they were super heroes. And untouchable to criticism due to blinkered “be kind” beliefs about the poor gay men who just want a family like heterosexual men.

Where do people think these babies come from? Do you think people delude themselves that all these gay men just have kind, altruistic female friends who happily have a baby for them? As opposed to exploiting vulnerable and desperate women in India, Mexico and the like.

I feel so angry - women are just fucked over and abused time and time again by men and it is all dressed up as progressive when it is the exact opposite.

When I was a younger women I loved having gay men in my social circle. They seemed like “nicer” more lovely men than most straight men. Now I realise that underneath it all they just the same sexist, privileged tossers as many straight men are. They want a baby? No problem - buy one! They want to invade women’s spaces? No problem - just reinvent yourself as “the most vulnerable in society”!

It’s like the scales have fallen from my eyes.

@Throneofgame I don’t believe anybody should be using surrogacy to have a family - gay or straight. What you seem to be saying is that co-parenting with a female friend (ok - it’s not for everyone and prob not very common) is a more outrageous/offensive idea than literally buying a baby from an woman with very few economic choices in a fucked up country that allows this to happen?

Unfortunately if you are a gay man (single or in a couple) there are only limited ways of having a family. No one’s fault, not homophobic, just biology sadly.

If none of the ethical ways for a person/couple of any combination of the two sexes to have a child suit them, that doesn’t give them a right to use an unethical one.

Gay men should not be discriminated against, obviously. But nor should they be privileged.

if you think surrogacy is ok for anyone then it’s ok for everyone. Maybe you do
But if you don’t think it’s ok for one set of people then it isn’t for anyone else either. This, I think, is the OPs position (and mine) - it’s not ok for straight couples, so it’s not ok for gay ones either.

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I haven't proved anything about double standards, where did I "applaud" gay couples or shout anyone down for being homophobic? I simply pointed out that if you feel surrogacy is exploiting women's bodies, then it seems logical to be more offended by other women using surrogates.

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And surrogacy is not just about bodily autonomy and a women’s right to decide what she does with her body, it is also about what is in the best interest of the child.

That’s it for me. I couldn’t imagine being the child born to a surrogate. What an absolute mind-fuck. I don’t think it’s fair to do that to a child.

You're not wrong! It just smack of entitlement 'we want a baby so we'll rent a woman's womb and buy one from her' oh and we don't want a brown baby so we'll buy some other woman's eggs to do it with. Utterly gross and entitled. Poor babies.

What bothers me most about this is, irrespective of the rights and wrongs of paid surrogacy, couples are being praised for going abroad for something illegal in this country. I.e. you can have a surrogate but not legally offer to pay for one beyond reasonable expenses.

Is this okay because it's other country's women's wombs. It's a bit colonial isn't it?!

I don't think this should be allowed, or at least I don't think these surrogate children should be accepted as British citizens if that makes sense.

You're talking about children as though they're consumer items that everyone should be entitled to. Children are human beings with human rights. They should never be taken from their mothers at birth except in extreme circumstances.

Weird that you made surrogacy an anti-gay-man thing @Tootingbec. Surely the problems are the same if anyone uses surrogacy?

Once the child is born, then I'd err on the side of kindness. There is no benefit to the child to grow up in a world that judges them and their parents.

Children are human beings with human rights, of course they are. But those rights aren't being stripped because a gay couple is caring for them instead of a woman.

It’s so sad. A baby need a mum and a dad not two dads or two mums. It’s awful that we allow this

I don't agree with the concerns about surrogacy being homophobic.

Where you get the gushing comments is usually wealthy gay men like Tom Daley who go abroad to buy wombs and children.

The OP's point was there is a parallel about wanting to seem progressive (aka trans rights) without considering the impact on others.

If you think that British gay men have the right to have genetic children then by all means volunteer to be a surrogate for them.

Or campaign for paid surrogates to be legal for British women. But not for it to be legal to bring these babies in from abroad which is colonialism frankly.

I don't agree with that. Adoption agencies actually did studies and found gay couples made better parents than average.

The OPs post isn't about men being fathers it's about paid surrogacy arrangements from abroad.

Adoption can be very difficult and isn't suitable for many people.

Well that's just too bad then isn't it. People are not 'owed' a child.

Thank goodness people like you don't get let anywhere near actual decision making, either.

I'm against surrogacy full stop; for gay, straight, whatever combination. But what particularly gets to me is the posed for photos, and I've seen several of these, where one of the males in the couple is lying in the hospital bed with the baby on his chest, as if he had given birth, and his partner beside him. Female no where to be seen. I think that is so insulting to the woman who gave birth and makes a mockery of it.

Every child has a mum and a dad of course, and huge numbers have been brought up successfully by a different combination, and huge numbers have had bad or neglectful parents of the male/female type. I’m not sure what your head-tilt homophobia has to do with surrogacy, which is a different issue.

Thing is, I don’t see it as a gay men issue. I see it as a class/wealth issue: one where wealthy couples exploit poorer/disadvantaged women by hiring their wombs for 9m, buy their eggs, and then take receipt of the baby like a commodity. Yes, i do think there is a repugnant and deeply ingrained level of misogyny on the part of the wealthy gay men concerned…. But that is equally evident in wealth hetero couples who ‘buy’ their babies. They think these women are nothing and that their right to parenthood trumps the rights of women who are seduced into surrogacy out of financial need.

No.

A baby needs love and nurturing. Just as toddlers, children and teenagers need love and nurturing.

While 2 loving parents would be ideal, sometimes children only have one.

Fair enough.

Does it need an answer?

I agree with OP. I might have had a different opinion before I had a baby but having seen just how dependent that baby is on me - how instinctive and primal the mother-baby dyad is - I can't accept any morality that doesn't put that relationship at the centre of decision-making.

Lesbian couples who have their own babies don't cut that bond.

Gay male couples and infertile couples using surrogacy arrangements do cut that bond. Not just cut it, but the "morality" of the "best practices" they impose is legalistically flipped from what I believe: "immediately hand over the baby so that the baby latches onto its 'true parents' instead of the 'gestational carrier'" etc.

I'm opposed to surrogacy in general but I agree with OP that gay men are a special case. Naming it as an equal rights issue means we feel we have to design a solution where they get to have biological children, even if that means suspending what I see as a higher moral duty (to the child). Sometimes that's not the right choice.

Why do you think that it is viewed as harmful to take puppies away from their mothers before they are a few weeks old, but it is acceptable to take human babies away from their mothers at birth? And even plan to do this before the child is even conceived?

Why do puppies have more rights than human babies to spend the first few weeks of their lives with their mothers?

Why is there no consideration of the trauma experienced by the child from being separated from its mother at birth?

Couples where both parties are men shouldn't have kids. I don't care if that's controversial, I feel it strongly in my gut.

You sound very judgemental and homophobic. Are you religious?

As @AFishDoesntKnow has said, my post is not an anti gay men thing - it’s about the specific issue of gay men using surrogacy as a means to have a family being seen as something to be celebrated and to be against that would be very much in the “not kind” camp - as indeed we have been conditioned to “be kind” and accept men who think they are women should be in our spaces

And as this is the FWR board I am expressing my view that this is just another example of men (albeit gay) demonstrating shamelessly their privilege and power over women and people seeing that as progressive.

And for the record (again!) I don’t agree with surrogacy for anyone (and no, I don’t buy that there are any significant numbers of women out there selflessly having a baby for infertile couples/gay men etc)