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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Struggling with my political allegiance now and it's really bothering me

267 replies

Appalonia · 04/09/2025 22:46

Since the eighties, I have been a leftie, raised money for the Miners ' strike, was in the SWP for a while in the 90s, lifelong Guardian reader, worked for charities for most of my career. However, I'm so disillusioned with what the left has become now. It started as for many of us with the trans issue, seeing formally trusted and respected institutions like the BBC, the Guardian, C4 etc either ignore, or blatantly skew the issues, the only place I could read the truth about what was happening was on ' right wing' media outlets that I would have dismissed outright previously.

Since it was only right wing outlets or posters that were talking about this, pp like Douglas Murray, Jordan Peterson, The Spectator etc, I feel like I've been exposed to right wing views that I now feel more more aligned to than left wing commentators like Owen Jones, Mark Steel, most comedians etc.

I now listen to Trigggernometry, Free Speech Nation The Lotus Eaters, and I'm starting to feel more aligned to them on other issues now, like free speech, immigration etc.

So, I'm thinking about the demonstration for free speech in London on 13 September in London and part of me really wants to go because I think it's really important and what's happened with the trans debate and how it's been reported in the press and how so many gender critical pp have been silenced. And it's not just about GC views, it's about free speech in general. But the people who are organising this, is really putting me off. I want to go and stand up for what I believe in but at the same time, this demo is being characterised as a ' far right' demonstration, and I don't want to be associated with that. In fact, years ago, I would have been on the other side, demonstrating against fascists.

I just can't disentangle it all in my mind, I believe in free speech and I do believe it's under threat in the UK, but at the same time I don't want to be associated with pp like Tommy Robinson. But even saying that, just watching his interview on Triggernometry was eye opening. Can anyone relate to this? I just feel so conflicted right now.

Sorry, I don't feel I've expressed myself very well, there's so much more th an this. I just can't square my identity of myself of a life long socialist with how much I disagree with so much of what the left stands for now, that I just don't agree with.

OP posts:
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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/09/2025 08:25

User37482 · 05/09/2025 08:01

As an ethnic minority I would agree with the point that people carry culture with them. This can be positive or negative, some groups excel in the UK specifically because of cultural values, some flail because of their cultural values. This should not be controversial. I once pointed out to a family member that at one point I moved to a country where homosexuality was illegal, I however did not change my views on homosexuality at all just by virtue of physically being in said country.

I wouldn’t expect someone moving to the UK would suddenly become in favour of womens equality, freedom of speech (see other thread debating a morroccon activist arrested for wearing an “allah is a lesbian” t-shirt.) it’s self delusion.

I don't think they should move to the UK if they are unwilling to respect such basic values though.

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 08:25

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/09/2025 08:01

This would be all very well if women enjoyed equal protection against hate speech (not to mention credible threats of harm) by trans activists.

So why don't we?

What is it about us boring female people that makes us less important and less worthy of protection than male people with gender identities?

Do you have any evidence where credible threats weren't prosecuted?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/09/2025 08:26

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 08:25

Do you have any evidence where credible threats weren't prosecuted?

You're asking me to prove a negative?

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2025 08:28

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 08:25

Do you have any evidence where credible threats weren't prosecuted?

Did you really just say that out loud today of all days?!

Were you asleep or something?

Oh wait...

tripleginandtonic · 05/09/2025 08:28

Reform council in Nottingham have stopped the local press reporting on meetings. The far right isn't pro free speech, just the speech they want to say.

Shedmistress · 05/09/2025 08:30

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 08:25

Do you have any evidence where credible threats weren't prosecuted?

All the times that women were murdered by men known by the police to be violent and a threat? That sort of credible threat? Or the ones on watch lists that went on to commit murder? That sort of credible threat?

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 05/09/2025 08:31

I suspect what you are seeing with British institutions as with many globally as necessity not to conflict with those & anti discrimination laws. Whilst you might feel they are cowering to 'ideology' you don't agree with, the fact is trans people are protected groups.

They may be protected by equality legislation, but only in terms of provision of services, housing, employment etc.

It does not mean that everything trans must be affirmed, nor does it mean that trans identified males can use whatever facilities they like, as they have found out since the Supreme Court ruling.

Unfortunately, too many organisations and institutions have bought into this ideology wholesale and are now having to row back their policies.

I’m so sick of hearing from TRAs ‘we’re protected under the Equality Act’. They’re not protected to do whatever the fuck they like, nor to demand people believe their bullshit.

ItsCoolForCats · 05/09/2025 08:36

I know what you mean op, but my view is that I have become more open minded.

I used to be a dyed in the wool lefty. I subscribed to the whole package of acceptable left wing beliefs and was pretty intolerant of other viewpoints. I only read the Guardian and watched C4 and BBC News.

What has gone on with gender ideology has really caused the blinkers to come off for me. It has made me question everything, and I know that you can't just rely on one source for your news. And I appreciate that things are a bit more complex than I previously thought, i.e. trying to find a compassionate but workable solution to immigration.

My views still align with the left on some things, and in others I'm probably more centrist now. The sad thing is that I politically homeless new because I think Labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens have failed women really badly.

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 08:40

Shedmistress · 05/09/2025 08:30

All the times that women were murdered by men known by the police to be violent and a threat? That sort of credible threat? Or the ones on watch lists that went on to commit murder? That sort of credible threat?

Um, the context of this discussion is speech censorship of ideas…

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/09/2025 08:44

ItsCoolForCats · 05/09/2025 08:36

I know what you mean op, but my view is that I have become more open minded.

I used to be a dyed in the wool lefty. I subscribed to the whole package of acceptable left wing beliefs and was pretty intolerant of other viewpoints. I only read the Guardian and watched C4 and BBC News.

What has gone on with gender ideology has really caused the blinkers to come off for me. It has made me question everything, and I know that you can't just rely on one source for your news. And I appreciate that things are a bit more complex than I previously thought, i.e. trying to find a compassionate but workable solution to immigration.

My views still align with the left on some things, and in others I'm probably more centrist now. The sad thing is that I politically homeless new because I think Labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens have failed women really badly.

Agree with this. It's making me question everything.

Previously I was more likely to accept that someone was probably right about something on the basis that I agree with them about most other things. But now I've seen so many people I previously thought were intelligent and measured absolutely losing the plot over gender ideology, I can no longer trust anything they say about other subjects either.

It means there are no short cuts to forming my own opinion about things anymore, and I would rather say, "I don't know enough to have a strong opinion about that" than nail my colours to the mast one way or another because someone I trust has already done so.

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 08:45

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/09/2025 08:26

You're asking me to prove a negative?

Lol, doesn't seem like you understand what 'proving a negative' means given the commenter was claiming credible threats existed….🤪

GoBackToTheStart · 05/09/2025 08:45

Stand for your views, not what people label them as, and not for a particular person as a beacon for your beliefs. The whole “left vs right” polarisation is why “the left” is trapped in a purity spiral that is slowly destroying it. You can be predominantly left wing while still having some views which people say are right wing because it isn’t all or nothing. Being “left wing” doesn’t mean you need to open your arms to the rewriting of reality at the altar of gender woo, and likewise, being “right wing” doesn’t automatically mean you are a fascist that wants all poor people to be chucked into workhouses and asylum seekers to be drowned at sea.

Views and beliefs are complex and they don’t fit neatly into a box no matter how much some people want them to, and intolerance and hyperbole on either side gets us nowhere but the shit show we have now for a political field.

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 05/09/2025 08:45

SaidAHipHopTheHippieToTheHippie · 05/09/2025 08:04

Don’t confuse the two things. You can agree with one thing the right does, it doesn’t mean you should vote for them.

These racists flag flyers are probably GC too, if they were educated enough to understand the term. But their flags are not about the safety of women and girls.

The Tory stance on Trans issues is not about feminism!

Flags aren't racist.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 05/09/2025 08:47

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 08:45

Lol, doesn't seem like you understand what 'proving a negative' means given the commenter was claiming credible threats existed….🤪

Interruptaron incoming.

Struggling with my political allegiance now and it's really bothering me
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/09/2025 08:49

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 08:45

Lol, doesn't seem like you understand what 'proving a negative' means given the commenter was claiming credible threats existed….🤪

Are you saying that all the instances of trans activists holding up placards threatening violence against TERFs aren't credible threats?

SionnachRuadh · 05/09/2025 08:50

ArabellaScott · 05/09/2025 08:20

Yes. And Reform are.going to be the next government. The Tories are lost, and Labour is fractured and failing.

I can't imagine what carnage they are going to wreak - but those that vote for them are understandably beyond exasperated with politics in general.

The argument against them, certainly from the Tories, is that they're a bunch of amateurs who wouldn't know how to govern.

They know that's a weakness and they're trying to address it, how successfully remains to be seen. The defectors they're attracting are part of this.

But as an argument for keeping the uniparty in power, it's pretty weak. Look at the people who do have experience of governing. Not just at national level, Birmingam is bankrupt and overrun by giant rats and the council's main current priority is removing flags (just not the Palestinian ones).

I think the two big historic parties are screwed. The Lib Dems might be the most stable part of the uniparty, even if under Ed Davey the national party is Monster Raving Loony writ large, because of their local strength built on hardworking councillors and nimbyism.

Igneococcus · 05/09/2025 08:51

I knew it would all hinge on the word "credible".

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 08:52

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/09/2025 08:49

Are you saying that all the instances of trans activists holding up placards threatening violence against TERFs aren't credible threats?

Strawman.

The claim was threats weren't prosecuted so show us how these threats were 'ignored'.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/09/2025 08:56

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 08:52

Strawman.

The claim was threats weren't prosecuted so show us how these threats were 'ignored'.

Because nothing was done about them? Which is kind of the dictionary definition of "ignoring"?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/09/2025 08:58

Igneococcus · 05/09/2025 08:51

I knew it would all hinge on the word "credible".

So hypocritical, given that I only mentioned credible threats to point out that feminists have actually received credible threats against them, not just hurty words, which is what @Howseitgoin is complaining about in relation to trans people.

He appears to think that trans people should be protected against "misgendering" but that women shouldn't be protected against trans activists calling for us to be beheaded.

Justwrong68 · 05/09/2025 08:58

Exactly the same for me! It’s made me remember how compelled I was to say I was left wing because anything else was social suicide at college. Now I think that choosing one lane out of two shows cowardice and ignorance. I’m still not sure why mainstream media were so quiet on the trans issue though.

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 09:00

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/09/2025 08:56

Because nothing was done about them? Which is kind of the dictionary definition of "ignoring"?

Non sequitur.

It does not follow that anonymous crowder displaying a threat who was not prosecuted must of been 'ignored'. Crowd policing being what it is isn't fool proof.

Niminy · 05/09/2025 09:00

My experience is that once you start to re-examine your ideas about one thing, then it’s like taking a brick out of a Jenga tower: everything else starts to wobble. Ideas cluster, particularly on the left, hence the ideological Christmas pudding that is the Omnicause. If you start to question one ingredient, well, it doesn’t stop there.

I’ve found, having been left wing all my life, that one by one the elements of left-wing beliefs have come to seem shibboleths, and one by one I’ve begun to question them. Like many others I used to be a Guardian reader and now subscribe to The Times. I’ve found some of the most thoughtful people are people who’ve moved from the left - I’d nominate Louise Perry and Mary Harrington.

I started to lose left wing friends about ten years ago, when I defended Jenni Murray. I’d say in the time since I’ve pretty much discarded the received ideas of the left that I’d cherished for all my adult life. Among the ideas that I’ve come to be sceptical about are open borders, Palestine liberation, net zero, Black Lives Matter, and of course TWAW. Those former friends probably think I’m ’far right’ now, whereas I feel politically homeless. Tories, hopeless, Labour incompetent, Reform are idiots. I sometimes look at the SDP, but they are so tiny.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/09/2025 09:02

Justwrong68 · 05/09/2025 08:58

Exactly the same for me! It’s made me remember how compelled I was to say I was left wing because anything else was social suicide at college. Now I think that choosing one lane out of two shows cowardice and ignorance. I’m still not sure why mainstream media were so quiet on the trans issue though.

I remember one of my best friends at uni accusing me of being a Tory, for reasons that weren't clear to me even at the time.

We'd only been old enough to vote in one general election at the time and I'd voted Lib Dem.

Ironically, many years later she told me she voted Tory (in her poor, former mining community) just to reduce the size of Labour's majority and keep them on their toes a bit more. (Which, in fairness, is not a bad reason for voting Tory.)

I've still never voted Tory, or Labour for that matter. And I can no longer vote Lib Dem either.

Most people at college/uni don't have a clue about politics anyway.

Howseitgoin · 05/09/2025 09:02

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 05/09/2025 08:58

So hypocritical, given that I only mentioned credible threats to point out that feminists have actually received credible threats against them, not just hurty words, which is what @Howseitgoin is complaining about in relation to trans people.

He appears to think that trans people should be protected against "misgendering" but that women shouldn't be protected against trans activists calling for us to be beheaded.

Strawman.