teenage girls and middle-aged men

[onlytherain]

I have read a few times here and elsewhere that the two groups with the highest rates of being trans or highest increase in transitioning are teenage girls and middle-aged men. I can only find data for teenage girls. Could someone please point me to data supporting the claim that middle-aged men are a group with high transitioning rates?

@Treaclewell Sorry, but I disagree with basis of your post, that assumes that everything that happens with humans is for some evolutionary reason or purpose.

Humans like all organisms are complex and something so complex can go wrong. AGP has been described as an erotic target location error, and many men who talk about it normally talk about a "gender incident" (as I call it), (typically a cross-dressing incident) in childhood which basically develops into AGP come puberty.

There isn't some sort of cultural evolutionary process that makes men AGP for evolutionary benefit, just that the wiring of the brain has gone a bit wrong.

Perhaps there is something in DNA that makes people more susceptible to developing fetishes, but cancer is also genetic and we don't claim there is a need for that or that we accept it.

I've seen a lot of women get worried about there being a genetic or biological element to AGP or even trans, because they then assume we have to accept "born this way", we don't. We as a society can place limits on behaviour, no matter how it developed.

And I in no way am claiming that people are born in the wrong body.

What I am thinking around is that there must be a reason for this particular bit of wrong wiring to a) occur and b) continue to occur. I don't think it can possibly have an evolutionary reason for existing, but it goes on happening. Interesting point about cancer. Same applies to haemophilia, and Huntington's chorea, and the disease which I have forgotten the name of which Orthodox Jews test for before marriage and for which they will deny marriage if they have the inheritance. (Tay-Sachs?)
Men who know they are going to develop trans should abjure marriage too, and spare future families hell.
Or stick to being Napoleon, or Julius Caesar.

So you recognise that young girls in general have a specific set of motivations for a trans identity that is different to young males and not about ‘wearing what they want’ as you initially claimed?

What about questions 2. and 3.?

So ‘trans’ was no longer relevant or desirable for these women and they could live their lives happily with intact bodies, bones and fertility.

How many young girls have already been medicated that would have ended up content ‘masc’ lesbians had they just waited until they were older?

The scale of this medical scandal is mind blowing and yet people still enable and defend.

As the link mentions, its a lot less socially restrictive to come out as a trans man than a trans woman.

So why aren't there more older women coming out as trans to match the numbers of adolescents and younger women?

If you are suggesting there should be more older women 'catching up' then that could be attributed to the vestiges of social norms they grew up with. Particularly for women that might be 'children & women should be seen & not heard'.

Do you mean the women who grew up in the Victorian era?

No, the 50, 60's & early 70's. If you think they are as forthright as the women of today I have a bridge to sell you.

As an example, MRA's love to quote those bogus women's 'Happiness' surveys that 'prove' women were happier pre sex revolution & working.

My point to them as it is to you is that we are dealing with a completely different animal these days. Have daughter have scars….

Personally, as an older female, I would love to whore it up today as the culture now allows but my Catholic/immigrant upbringing gets in the way…

I think Howie is telling us that he's a Time Lord.

No, the 50, 60's & early 70's. If you think they are as forthright as the women of today I have a bridge to sell you.

So you think us older women are a bunch of shrinking violets? Stick around here a bit longer and see if you still think that way.

As an example, MRA's love to quote those bogus women's 'Happiness' surveys that 'prove' women were happier pre sex revolution & working.

How is this an "example" of anything? The sex revolution was the 60s, so this would be a much older group than you refer to in your previous sentence.

Personally, as an older female, I would love to whore it up today as the culture now allows but my Catholic/immigrant upbringing gets in the way…

Whore it up? What on earth do you mean? And what do you mean by the "culture now allows"? Unless you're over 80 this makes no sense.

Strawman. I never said that older women were 'all' the same but were influenced by social norms of their formative years which would no doubt influence their life choices.

The "Happiness' surveys go back as far as post war.

"Whore it up? What on earth do you mean? And what do you mean by the "culture now allows"? Unless you're over 80 this makes no sense.

If you've ever been to a beach recently you might notice a difference in attire between younger & older women as in Gstrings. Personally Iv'e still got the butt to carry it as well as them but I just wouldn't. I'm from a different era where that's just 'too much'.

The women of today are evidently more sexually permissive because its now more culturally acceptable to be. As in having numerous sexual partners does not make one 'damaged goods' any more & anyone suggesting such would be socially shamed.

It's not clear to me what women being "forthright" (or not) has to do with younger women wearing skimpier clothing than older women (it was the same 50 years ago) or women having numerous sexual partners. Or what any of these things have to do with the fact that TIMs greatly outnumber TIFs in older age groups.

You asked me why more older women weren't 'transing' later in life remember? I explained to you that it was probably due to restrictive cultural norms regarding women of their time that they weren't able to shake & I gave you examples of this.

'Forthright 'as in more outspoken/assertive regarding their needs & personal expression.

Autogynephilia I believe the term is. Not something women seem to experience, but happy to be educated on this if I’m wrong…

The women of today are evidently more sexually permissive because its now more culturally acceptable to be. As in having numerous sexual partners does not make one 'damaged goods' any more & anyone suggesting such would be socially shamed.

I think the change in sexual permissiveness and the culture around it has a lot to do with the availability of antibiotics/antivirals and reliable birth control. Promiscuity is a much less attractive proposition if you risk untreatable STIs and unwanted pregnancies.

And this has been the case for about 50 years now. Hence my comment that anyone whose experience was different must be over about 80.

You think that women over 40 aren't "transing" later in life "due to restrictive cultural norms regarding women of their time that they weren't able to shake"? What cultural norms of the 80s and 90s are you referring to?

Do you find that the older women posting on here aren't very forthright? I'm sure we can fix that.

@OldCrone

Yes, people's perception of old people never seems to update though. Fifty years from now people will still go on how old people fought in the war.

I was referring to more women born in the 50's 60's & 70's as 'older women'. The reason for that is parents of their time would have most likely influenced their children's understanding of cultural mores & expectations. It's possible that might extend to the eighties particularly for immigrant demographics.

Clearly it's not just about culture changing past that point but access to information. With the advent of the internet & later social media knowledge gives a better understanding of phenomena.

I suspect the mistake many people make with this issue is the assumption of 'social contagion' (an unproven theory) as if monkey see monkey do is all it takes to 'trans' oneself or partake in any other life changing pursuit but it's probably a combination seeing AND connecting AND feeling more comfortable that others have.

And what ages are these women now?

and what are they doing now ( as independent adult who have managed to sucessfully adapt to modern living ) ?

I have wondered whether autogynephilia Is related to how much women carry the sexuality of the human species.

In the 70s, I remember discussion about how much we were controlled because women embodied sexuality (in the sense of being sexual beings). Men were just regular humans.

It is still true that women are permitted to and often expected to dress in a more sexualised way. Look at any newspaper or magazine and you see women in sleeveless dresses showing a lot of cleavage where the equivalent men are covered. I’m not being prudish, just drawing attention to the contrast.

So if men are focussed on their sexuality (again in the general sense) is it surprising that some of them become drawn to a way of being that carries the way our society expresses sex? That is normally attached to women.

I don’t know if I’m making sense here!

I live in France, which still has some quite conservative customs. One of which is that in a formal dining situation, all women will be served first, and then all men.

I once had a work lunch with various team members, including a woman who has short hair and was wearing a fairly sober trouser suit with a plain shirt (no tie) and flat shoes. For what it's worth, she's a lesbian, but I don't think that's particularly relevant.

It was a hot summer's day, and the other women were all wearing dresses or skirts and sleeveless tops.

When the meal was served, in every course the waitress ostentatiously left her out when serving the women and served her with the men instead. I have no idea what the thought process was. Was the waitress spectacularly unobservant and didn't notice my colleague is a woman? Did she assume that my colleague identifies as a trans man and thought that serving her with the men was the polite thing to do? Or was she making a rude comment about my colleague's masculine attire? I don't know.

But either way, it's absolutely true that society expects women to dress like women, which generally means exposing more flesh than men.

More likely because older lesbians didn't grow up with the pressures of social media and also before 'being trans' became a fad.