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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I'm confused what gender critical people want. Could someone clarify?

293 replies

Christinapple · 04/09/2025 09:36

They want any LGBT person or supporter who makes a threat of violence arrested? Correct? For an example there was Sarah Jane Barker who made a "if you see a TERF, punch 'em in the face!" comment. There was a Glasgow protest where someone held up a cardboard sign with a guillotine crudely drawn with a crayon and "decapacitate TERFs" or something scrawled. These happened years ago and to this day the GC community still talk about and refer to them and say they should have been arrested/charged/convicted.

For another example a trans person a while back jokingly posted something like "let's give KJK a NZ welcome" on twitter which then led to a lot of angry GC people from here making police reports and brigading them (someone posted a link on here and lots went over to be abusive directly to her).

And then Graham Linehan threatens to/incites others to punch trans people in their genitalia (not his first time btw, he has a long track record of threatening and inciting abuse and violence towards LGBT people and their supporters), and yet these same GC people flock to twitter to say that it's "free speech" and "people shouldn't be arrested for online communications".

So what is it to be? If you want LGBT people arrested and charged for threats then GL would need charged too.

If you want GL to have a "legal pass" to make threats then that means it should be the same for all including LGBT people and allies.

Whatever the law is it needs to apply to everyone equally. You can't have one rule for GCs and another rule for LGBT people and allies.

OP posts:
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CohensDiamondTeeth · 04/09/2025 14:30

Turnups · 04/09/2025 14:19

They - we - want the same rules about threats of violence to be applied to everyone. But a suggestion of violence as a last resort against a man insisting on entering a female-only space is not the same as advocating violence against anyone who holds an opinion with which you disagree.

We want trans people to obey the law, and not try to unilaterally change the meaning of the word "woman" while trying to prevent the matter even being discussed.

We want to be able to say what the vast majority of people in the world know, and have always known - that other than the tiny proportion of unfortunate people with DSDs humans come in two sexes and cannot change from one to the other - without being accused of being hateful bigots.

We want female-only spaces, sports, awards and opportunities, all of which were created for a good reason, to remain for females only.

We want recognition that gender ideology, with its insistence on old-fashioned gender stereotypes, is not progressive but regressive. A man who wants to present in ways traditionally associated with women should be able to do so without having to deny that he’s a man.

We want an end to the imbecilic idea that if the mantra "trans women are women" is repeated often enough it will suddenly become true. We want acknowledgement that transwomen are a sub-category of men.

But you knew all that.

Sorry, here I go nit picking again!

People with DSDs are still either one sex or the other. They are male or female, there is no third sex or absence of sex.

Other than that I totally agree with you!

SirBasil · 04/09/2025 14:34

Negroany · 04/09/2025 12:32

I don't think anyone should be punching anyone and I don't think anyone should be suggesting it even as a last resort.

And I said "suggestion of violence in his tweet" in his tweet, not "violence in his tweet".

Interesting that your defence of his wording seems to be that it's reasonable to punch someone (as long as you have done two other things first). His defence was that it was a joke based on the relative height of women v men. So, despite the fact that he actually wrote it, you seem to think he had a different motivation than he claims.

Obviously, as you would see if you read my post rather than just jumping down my throat, I also abhor the call to violence against "TERFS". As I said, I don't think anyone should incite (autocorrect error in my original) violence.

Interesting that your defence of his wording seems to be that it's reasonable to punch someone (as long as you have done two other things first).

here's the thing. I had a man force me into a train toilet - well, first blocked the door and wouldn'T let me out then pushed me in - i asked him to leave me alone, i screamed at him to leave me alone and screamed for help. Then i punched him in the throat because i couldn't get away (while the train staff stood around umming and ahhing about calling the police). And then when he moved so i could get out, they ASKED HIM IF THEY WANTED THEM TO CALL THE POLICE ON ME. At which point several other passengers pointed out the error of their ways and suggested they call the police for me.

Which didn't happen so the fucker got away.

So my advice to anyone in that position - note i took previous actions to stop someone pushing me into a space - is to punch them in the adam's apple.

You are going to say that i'm inciting violence?

Zimunya · 04/09/2025 14:37

@Christinapple - love the name of this thread - "I'm confused what gender critical people want. Could someone clarify?" I'm confused too. Now you want a debate. Really? What changed?

For years ordinary people, let alone GC people, were interested in sensible and nuanced debate about trans rights and responsibilities, but were stymied by the Stonewall diktat of "no debate" - online, on public platforms, and in the broadcast media. This soon spread to offices where HR teams had drunk the Stonewall koolaid. Winning people over to your position, whilst recognising and addressing their anxieties, is usually a far better way of securing legislative and social progress. GC people did this, and the law has come down on their "side". I can't speak for all GC people, but the ones I know merely want the laws to be applied appropriately and fairly. That includes the Equality Act, which for years was misapplied in many organizations thanks to duff advice from Stonewall. If you feel the law is not being evenly applied now, welcome to the club!

timesublimelysilencesthewhys · 04/09/2025 14:39

user2848502016 · 04/09/2025 13:04

I didn’t read it as a joke, but whatever my opinion is that the tweet went too far and I’m entitled to that.
I have also said that GL shouldn’t have been arrested for it.
There is a difference between punching someone in the balls if they are actually attacking you, as in the case of the Queen, and punching someone just for being in a toilet (as much as I don’t want any men in the ladies ever)

If the tweet went too far, what should happen? There has to be consequences of going too far, otherwise its not too far, its just something you wouldnt have written.

We are forgetting what we knew 10 years ago. It isnt appropriate for men to be in womens toilets, its intimidating at the very least. It was very normal, in this situation, to advise women and girls to kick the man in the balls and run.

midgetastic · 04/09/2025 14:42

Shout fire - it’s more effective at getting a response

MyAmpleSheep · 04/09/2025 14:45

timesublimelysilencesthewhys · 04/09/2025 14:39

If the tweet went too far, what should happen? There has to be consequences of going too far, otherwise its not too far, its just something you wouldnt have written.

We are forgetting what we knew 10 years ago. It isnt appropriate for men to be in womens toilets, its intimidating at the very least. It was very normal, in this situation, to advise women and girls to kick the man in the balls and run.

If the tweet went too far, what should happen?

Nothing.

There has to be consequences of going too far

No there don't. We all say, wow, that went a bit too far! And move on. If a couple of dozen trans-identifying men turn up in A&E with bruised bollocks in the weeks following, we can revisit.

Not absolutely everything that's worthy of some small amount of blame needs to be dealt with by the authorities. Life goes on.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/09/2025 14:46

@Christinapple I think you have rather answered your own question in the OP, no?

We want the police to treat threats of violence by trans activists against women/feminists with the same degree of seriousness as that which has been given to Graham Linehan's conduct.

Of course, there is a problem with that, which is that it would take up an awful lot of police time to investigate all the thousands of credible threats of violence emanating from trans rights activists than to investigate the occasional threat coming from the other side, but the double standards are quite staggering.

They should be taking threats made by Sarah Jane Baker, who has served time for attempted murder, particularly seriously.

BananaPeels · 04/09/2025 14:46

timesublimelysilencesthewhys · 04/09/2025 14:39

If the tweet went too far, what should happen? There has to be consequences of going too far, otherwise its not too far, its just something you wouldnt have written.

We are forgetting what we knew 10 years ago. It isnt appropriate for men to be in womens toilets, its intimidating at the very least. It was very normal, in this situation, to advise women and girls to kick the man in the balls and run.

Who is the moral arbiter of a tweet going too far?

Even on this thread there is a spread of opinions of the line.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/09/2025 14:47

Christinapple · 04/09/2025 09:50

I'm trying to figure out who "free speech" and laws on malicious/threatening communications should apply to. The entire population or only for certain people?

Which one is it?

The whole population, obviously.

Which is why trans activists shouldn't be getting the free pass that they apparently are getting.

CohensDiamondTeeth · 04/09/2025 14:54

SirBasil · 04/09/2025 14:34

Interesting that your defence of his wording seems to be that it's reasonable to punch someone (as long as you have done two other things first).

here's the thing. I had a man force me into a train toilet - well, first blocked the door and wouldn'T let me out then pushed me in - i asked him to leave me alone, i screamed at him to leave me alone and screamed for help. Then i punched him in the throat because i couldn't get away (while the train staff stood around umming and ahhing about calling the police). And then when he moved so i could get out, they ASKED HIM IF THEY WANTED THEM TO CALL THE POLICE ON ME. At which point several other passengers pointed out the error of their ways and suggested they call the police for me.

Which didn't happen so the fucker got away.

So my advice to anyone in that position - note i took previous actions to stop someone pushing me into a space - is to punch them in the adam's apple.

You are going to say that i'm inciting violence?

Edited

Fucking hell!

I'm glad you were ok. Well you wouldn't have been ok, but I'm sure you know what I mean. They asked him if he wanted them to call the police on you?! Some people are fucking stupid!

I'm sorry that happened to you, that would have been terrifying and afterwards I'm sure you were furious and upset at everyone's reaction too, which only makes it worse!

CohensDiamondTeeth · 04/09/2025 14:57

midgetastic · 04/09/2025 14:42

Shout fire - it’s more effective at getting a response

Yes this.

Which as I've said before is really fucking depressing, because if you shout "rape" it's been proven people are less likely to come to your aid.

Theyreeatingthedogs · 04/09/2025 15:00

Christinapple · 04/09/2025 09:36

They want any LGBT person or supporter who makes a threat of violence arrested? Correct? For an example there was Sarah Jane Barker who made a "if you see a TERF, punch 'em in the face!" comment. There was a Glasgow protest where someone held up a cardboard sign with a guillotine crudely drawn with a crayon and "decapacitate TERFs" or something scrawled. These happened years ago and to this day the GC community still talk about and refer to them and say they should have been arrested/charged/convicted.

For another example a trans person a while back jokingly posted something like "let's give KJK a NZ welcome" on twitter which then led to a lot of angry GC people from here making police reports and brigading them (someone posted a link on here and lots went over to be abusive directly to her).

And then Graham Linehan threatens to/incites others to punch trans people in their genitalia (not his first time btw, he has a long track record of threatening and inciting abuse and violence towards LGBT people and their supporters), and yet these same GC people flock to twitter to say that it's "free speech" and "people shouldn't be arrested for online communications".

So what is it to be? If you want LGBT people arrested and charged for threats then GL would need charged too.

If you want GL to have a "legal pass" to make threats then that means it should be the same for all including LGBT people and allies.

Whatever the law is it needs to apply to everyone equally. You can't have one rule for GCs and another rule for LGBT people and allies.

Why do you keep referring to LGBT people? LGB people can be GC too. I'm not aware of Linehan having a problem with LGB people. The term you need is Trans.

CohensDiamondTeeth · 04/09/2025 15:05

Theyreeatingthedogs · 04/09/2025 15:00

Why do you keep referring to LGBT people? LGB people can be GC too. I'm not aware of Linehan having a problem with LGB people. The term you need is Trans.

Gods I'm really sorry! I'm properly at it today!

The term Chris wants is trans identifying men.

SirBasil · 04/09/2025 15:13

CohensDiamondTeeth · 04/09/2025 14:54

Fucking hell!

I'm glad you were ok. Well you wouldn't have been ok, but I'm sure you know what I mean. They asked him if he wanted them to call the police on you?! Some people are fucking stupid!

I'm sorry that happened to you, that would have been terrifying and afterwards I'm sure you were furious and upset at everyone's reaction too, which only makes it worse!

thank you.

But my question is: if i recommend doing what i did: ask politely, ask firmly, shout for help, punch to the throat

are you going to say I'm inciting violence? Because that is comparable to Glinner's tweet

Negroany · 04/09/2025 15:30

CohensDiamondTeeth · 04/09/2025 14:06

So say a man enters the female toilets or changing rooms where I might be semi undressed, he won't leave when I ask him, or when I call the police. I cannot escape because he is between me and the door.

Say this hypothetical man comes towards me. I don't know if he is going to attack me, or maybe since we are doing a hypothetical scenario, lets say he does attack me. I scream he doesn't stop or leave. I use my phone to dial 999 and he doesn't stop or leave.

Lets say I am one of the few women for whom the instinctive response is not flight or fawn, but fight and I try to fight him off, possibly managing to land a punch to the balls... you wouldn't condone my violence?

What do you think I should do in that situation? Just let him do whatever he likes to me? Ok then...

This was not the situation Linehan was putting forward so is irrelevant to the discussion.

Negroany · 04/09/2025 15:32

SirBasil · 04/09/2025 14:34

Interesting that your defence of his wording seems to be that it's reasonable to punch someone (as long as you have done two other things first).

here's the thing. I had a man force me into a train toilet - well, first blocked the door and wouldn'T let me out then pushed me in - i asked him to leave me alone, i screamed at him to leave me alone and screamed for help. Then i punched him in the throat because i couldn't get away (while the train staff stood around umming and ahhing about calling the police). And then when he moved so i could get out, they ASKED HIM IF THEY WANTED THEM TO CALL THE POLICE ON ME. At which point several other passengers pointed out the error of their ways and suggested they call the police for me.

Which didn't happen so the fucker got away.

So my advice to anyone in that position - note i took previous actions to stop someone pushing me into a space - is to punch them in the adam's apple.

You are going to say that i'm inciting violence?

Edited

Mine of that was the situation GL put forward so it's a straw man argument.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/09/2025 15:45

Verv · 04/09/2025 11:50

Equality.

If GC people are going to be visited at home for reeducation by the police or arrested for wrongthink, i want every single tran who has involved himself in threats of death, hanging, assault, and rape whether this be online or via placard to be treated in exactly the same way.

This. And the number of those is orders of magnitude larger.

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 04/09/2025 15:58

Negroany · 04/09/2025 15:32

Mine of that was the situation GL put forward so it's a straw man argument.

Its not a straw man, it's exploring where we draw the line.

Its asking whether the punch in the balls would be acceptable in certain circumstances.

If yes, all we disagree about is where to draw that line.

If you think not, then we fundamentally disagree about how women should assert their boundaries with pushy men.

Edited to add: asking those questions helps us to refine our opinions.

SapphireSeptember · 04/09/2025 16:08

Christinapple · 04/09/2025 09:36

They want any LGBT person or supporter who makes a threat of violence arrested? Correct? For an example there was Sarah Jane Barker who made a "if you see a TERF, punch 'em in the face!" comment. There was a Glasgow protest where someone held up a cardboard sign with a guillotine crudely drawn with a crayon and "decapacitate TERFs" or something scrawled. These happened years ago and to this day the GC community still talk about and refer to them and say they should have been arrested/charged/convicted.

For another example a trans person a while back jokingly posted something like "let's give KJK a NZ welcome" on twitter which then led to a lot of angry GC people from here making police reports and brigading them (someone posted a link on here and lots went over to be abusive directly to her).

And then Graham Linehan threatens to/incites others to punch trans people in their genitalia (not his first time btw, he has a long track record of threatening and inciting abuse and violence towards LGBT people and their supporters), and yet these same GC people flock to twitter to say that it's "free speech" and "people shouldn't be arrested for online communications".

So what is it to be? If you want LGBT people arrested and charged for threats then GL would need charged too.

If you want GL to have a "legal pass" to make threats then that means it should be the same for all including LGBT people and allies.

Whatever the law is it needs to apply to everyone equally. You can't have one rule for GCs and another rule for LGBT people and allies.

What if you're GC and LGBT at the same time? Asking for myself. Although you did ignore me the last time I asked you a question. Hmm

timesublimelysilencesthewhys · 04/09/2025 16:09

Who is the moral arbiter of a tweet going too far?

Damned if i know, im not suggesting that theres a 'too far' for a tweet.

SirBasil · 04/09/2025 16:09

Negroany · 04/09/2025 15:32

Mine of that was the situation GL put forward so it's a straw man argument.

point out to me the Straw Man here as if i were 5...

Glinner: (paraphrased) if you see a man in a women's toilet ask them to leave, call the police and if all else fails punch them in the balls

me: (paraphrased) if you are stuck in a toilet with a man, ask him to leave, shout at him to leave, ask someone to call the police, punch them in the throat

??

GarlicPint · 04/09/2025 16:18

DoinFineIThink · 04/09/2025 10:04

Where has @Christinapple said they're a man? Have I missed something? Or is this that "you're a man" thing again if it's a poster you don't agree with?

OP is a prolific poster on this board, has been for some time. Is male. If you're one of those "can't tell the difference" people, I can't help you but there are course modules on the matter. That is, there were - I suppose teaching the differences between male & female may have become too risky.

carowils · 04/09/2025 16:25

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Negroany · 04/09/2025 16:31

SirBasil · 04/09/2025 16:09

point out to me the Straw Man here as if i were 5...

Glinner: (paraphrased) if you see a man in a women's toilet ask them to leave, call the police and if all else fails punch them in the balls

me: (paraphrased) if you are stuck in a toilet with a man, ask him to leave, shout at him to leave, ask someone to call the police, punch them in the throat

??

point out to me the Straw Man here as if i were 5...

You will find Google useful.

But the situation you explained was not the same. His was 'if you see', yours was 'I was held in a toilet against my will and fought my way out'.

I'm not punching any man I see in a loo. See. Any man I just SEE. And I would not suggest that to anyone.

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 04/09/2025 16:31

Christinapple · 04/09/2025 09:36

They want any LGBT person or supporter who makes a threat of violence arrested? Correct? For an example there was Sarah Jane Barker who made a "if you see a TERF, punch 'em in the face!" comment. There was a Glasgow protest where someone held up a cardboard sign with a guillotine crudely drawn with a crayon and "decapacitate TERFs" or something scrawled. These happened years ago and to this day the GC community still talk about and refer to them and say they should have been arrested/charged/convicted.

For another example a trans person a while back jokingly posted something like "let's give KJK a NZ welcome" on twitter which then led to a lot of angry GC people from here making police reports and brigading them (someone posted a link on here and lots went over to be abusive directly to her).

And then Graham Linehan threatens to/incites others to punch trans people in their genitalia (not his first time btw, he has a long track record of threatening and inciting abuse and violence towards LGBT people and their supporters), and yet these same GC people flock to twitter to say that it's "free speech" and "people shouldn't be arrested for online communications".

So what is it to be? If you want LGBT people arrested and charged for threats then GL would need charged too.

If you want GL to have a "legal pass" to make threats then that means it should be the same for all including LGBT people and allies.

Whatever the law is it needs to apply to everyone equally. You can't have one rule for GCs and another rule for LGBT people and allies.

GC people do not want one rule for them and another for everyone else. They want the same standards applied to everyone: speech is allowed, credible threats and violence are not. The sticking point is what counts as a credible threat in UK law.

What is a credible threat?

In UK law the exact offences vary, but the common thread is intent plus a realistic prospect of harm. Courts look at context, not just a single sentence. Key tests often include:
• Specificity: is there a named target or clearly identifiable group or person, rather than a vague slogan.
• Immediacy and proximity: is it urging imminent action or tied to a time and place.
• Capability and likelihood: is there a real prospect the threat could be carried out, not obvious hyperbole.
• Intent to cause fear or encourage crime: would a reasonable person think the speaker intended to make the target fear violence, or intended others to commit violence.
• Pattern and context: prior conduct, surrounding events, and how the audience is likely to take it.

Relevant offences include Threats to Kill, Public Order offences, encouraging or assisting crime, and communications offences. All of them turn on context and intent, not simply whether the words are nasty.

Applying that to the examples raised
• Placards like “decapitate TERFs” or chants like “punch a TERF”: revolting, yes. On their own, courts often treat this kind of crude protest rhetoric as hyperbolic rather than a credible plan to kill or injure. If there is organisation, direction at named individuals, attempts to locate someone, or incitement tied to a time and place, it becomes far more legally serious.
• “Give KJK a NZ welcome”: in isolation it looks flippant. In context, after a prior mobbing where she was physically attacked, it can reasonably be read as encouraging a repeat. That context moves it closer to a credible encouragement of violence even if the words are coy.
• Graham Linehan’s “punch in the genitals” line: it is crude and wrong. But the legal question is not “is it offensive” but “is it a credible threat or incitement.” It was not a targeted, time-and-place instruction, nor directed at a specific person, nor something he was arranging or capable of carrying out. In legal terms it reads as hyperbolic venting, so it is unlikely to meet the threshold for a credible threat or for encouraging a specific offence. It can still breach platform rules or merit criticism. Equal standards means we should say the same when “our side” mouths off.

Why convicted violent offenders are different

This is where GC concerns about safeguarding come in. Once you move from speech to acts of violence, or to specific, directed threats that a court has found credible, you are no longer in the free-speech realm. You are dealing with known risk. Saying “we should not house or search female people alongside males with a record of violent or sexual offending” is a safeguarding position, not a speech preference. There is a clear, evidence-based difference between someone tweeting something stupid and someone with a proven history of violence.

Bottom line
• One rule for all: protect speech, prosecute credible threats and violence, regardless of who says them.
• Condemn vile rhetoric across the board, but reserve police time and criminal penalties for cases that meet the legal tests.
• Safeguarding decisions should be based on risk from behaviour and convictions, not on identity labels.

That is the GC position in plain terms.