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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I'm confused what gender critical people want. Could someone clarify?

293 replies

Christinapple · 04/09/2025 09:36

They want any LGBT person or supporter who makes a threat of violence arrested? Correct? For an example there was Sarah Jane Barker who made a "if you see a TERF, punch 'em in the face!" comment. There was a Glasgow protest where someone held up a cardboard sign with a guillotine crudely drawn with a crayon and "decapacitate TERFs" or something scrawled. These happened years ago and to this day the GC community still talk about and refer to them and say they should have been arrested/charged/convicted.

For another example a trans person a while back jokingly posted something like "let's give KJK a NZ welcome" on twitter which then led to a lot of angry GC people from here making police reports and brigading them (someone posted a link on here and lots went over to be abusive directly to her).

And then Graham Linehan threatens to/incites others to punch trans people in their genitalia (not his first time btw, he has a long track record of threatening and inciting abuse and violence towards LGBT people and their supporters), and yet these same GC people flock to twitter to say that it's "free speech" and "people shouldn't be arrested for online communications".

So what is it to be? If you want LGBT people arrested and charged for threats then GL would need charged too.

If you want GL to have a "legal pass" to make threats then that means it should be the same for all including LGBT people and allies.

Whatever the law is it needs to apply to everyone equally. You can't have one rule for GCs and another rule for LGBT people and allies.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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SidewaysOtter · 04/09/2025 12:54

Boiledbeetle · 04/09/2025 12:53

Can you repeat that? I can't hear what you're saying.

WHAT? Speak up!

MrTiddlesTheCat · 04/09/2025 12:55

I think there's a huge difference between telling angry, aggressive men to punch women in the face if they don't like their opinions and telling women and girls to punch a man in the genitals as a last resort if he's invading their safe space.

CassOle · 04/09/2025 12:55

Namelessnelly · 04/09/2025 12:48

youve never heard of SING

solsr plexus
instep
nose
groin

its a technique used in self defence. I’d I’m cornered by a large man who is where he has no business to be and won’t leave when asked, of course I’ll feel threatened. What innocent reason can a male be in female facilities for if he’s not maintenance or a cleaner?

Sandra Bullock I Dont Remember Their Names Lmao GIF

Now I want to watch Miss Congeniality.

DolphinOnASkateboard · 04/09/2025 13:01

"GCs complained when action was not taken against a TRA with a 'decapitate TERFs' sign, yet they ALSO complained when action was taken agaisnt a man who tweeted something about punching someone in the balls. I am very clever."

user2848502016 · 04/09/2025 13:04

BananaPeels · 04/09/2025 11:13

Which tweet?

the ‘punch him in the balls’ was clearly a joke. It was literally the punchline. It is man in the women’s toilet, women don’t have balls so the joke is if all else fails ‘punch him in the balls’.

there has to be a clear difference to a direct call for violence against someone specific or in a Specific place and hyperbole and jokes. The bar should be exceedingly high before action is taken.

I didn’t read it as a joke, but whatever my opinion is that the tweet went too far and I’m entitled to that.
I have also said that GL shouldn’t have been arrested for it.
There is a difference between punching someone in the balls if they are actually attacking you, as in the case of the Queen, and punching someone just for being in a toilet (as much as I don’t want any men in the ladies ever)

hamadryad · 04/09/2025 13:06

Graham Lineham was specifically talking about trans not LGB. That was his intention. And a trans woman should not be in a woman’s/girls bathroom in the first place. You know that, right?

Hedgehogbrown · 04/09/2025 13:07

CassOle · 04/09/2025 09:45

People who are Gender Critical want 'gender stereotypes' to be put in the bin.

If you wish to discuss free speech Vs restricted speech and where the 'incitement of violence' line should be (or if it should be removed), that is a much bigger issue and is not restricted to people who are critical of 'gender stereotypes'. I suspect that you will find that people who are critical of 'gender stereotypes' will have different opinions on free speech/incitement to violence.

This is a good answer.

Heylittlesongbird · 04/09/2025 13:09

“Whatever the law is it needs to apply to everyone equally. You can't have one rule for GCs and another rule for LGBT people and allies.”

This is in your opening post, so haven’t you almost answered it yourself?

At the moment people say awful things about ‘terfs’ and don’t get arrested.

Graham Linehan said something arguably far milder and did get arrested.

Therefore, the law is not currently being applied equally.

VickyEadieofThigh · 04/09/2025 13:15

Christinapple · 04/09/2025 09:36

They want any LGBT person or supporter who makes a threat of violence arrested? Correct? For an example there was Sarah Jane Barker who made a "if you see a TERF, punch 'em in the face!" comment. There was a Glasgow protest where someone held up a cardboard sign with a guillotine crudely drawn with a crayon and "decapacitate TERFs" or something scrawled. These happened years ago and to this day the GC community still talk about and refer to them and say they should have been arrested/charged/convicted.

For another example a trans person a while back jokingly posted something like "let's give KJK a NZ welcome" on twitter which then led to a lot of angry GC people from here making police reports and brigading them (someone posted a link on here and lots went over to be abusive directly to her).

And then Graham Linehan threatens to/incites others to punch trans people in their genitalia (not his first time btw, he has a long track record of threatening and inciting abuse and violence towards LGBT people and their supporters), and yet these same GC people flock to twitter to say that it's "free speech" and "people shouldn't be arrested for online communications".

So what is it to be? If you want LGBT people arrested and charged for threats then GL would need charged too.

If you want GL to have a "legal pass" to make threats then that means it should be the same for all including LGBT people and allies.

Whatever the law is it needs to apply to everyone equally. You can't have one rule for GCs and another rule for LGBT people and allies.

I think - as an L person myself - I'd like you to recognise that LGB isn't the issue here - it's the T activists making threats of violence for years, often in full view of the police (who do nothing at all), which GC people object to. We'd rather like the double standards of sending FIVE armed police officers to arrest Glinner for a joke tweet (did you not notice the "punch them in the balls" part refers to the fact that these people in women's spaces are MEN?) be noted by the police and for them to react accordingly WHEN trans activists send masked mobs holding banners directing threats of violence INCLUDING murder aimed at women.

That's what we want.

akkakk · 04/09/2025 13:26

What is wanted?

Simple - for truth, honesty and reality to be the starting point...

That means:

  • everyone accepting the truth that sex is immutable and biologically ordained...
  • everyone accepting the supreme court clarification of the law
  • It means at the simpler level not having people start threads on a false basis pretending to not understand something in the hope of catching someone out...

the minute we go back to truth and honesty - most of these issues would go away... and then we would be left with the reality of the few who have genuine dysmorphia / mental health needs and we could help ensure those are met...

until then we see the continual outcome of the dishonesty and lies (all coming from the core lie that you can change sex):

  • lack of safeguarding
  • abuse of children
  • damage to people's health
  • people's lives turned upside down
  • jobs lost
  • money wasted
  • etc.
PrettyDamnCosmic · 04/09/2025 13:33

CompleteGinasaur · 04/09/2025 12:36

One of the things that comes through strongly in the thread dealing specifically with Glinner's arrest is the conviction that that farcical piece of authoritarian overkill will result in a significant uptick in conversions to a gender critical viewpoint. So I'm glad this latest nonsense from Chris has made it onto Trending - thanks Chris, have you never heard of the Streisand Effect?

So I'm glad this latest nonsense from Chris has made it onto Trending - thanks Chris, have you never heard of the Streisand Effect?

Now known in the UK as the Theodore Upton Effect

SidewaysOtter · 04/09/2025 13:36

Now known in the UK as the Theodore Upton Effect

What a legacy for him to have.

#SadTimes

Screamingabdabz · 04/09/2025 13:37

“Graham Linehan threatens to/incites others to punch trans people in their genitalia”

Thats not what he said though is it? He basically said if a man is in female toilet he shouldn’t be there. And if all else fails to ‘punch them in the balls’. Ball-havers = men. Maybe he knows that males who repeatedly and deliberately make women uncomfortable by crossing safe-space boundaries only understand one language?

SnoopyPajamas · 04/09/2025 13:43

A woman being advised to punch a man in the genitals, if she finds herself trapped in a woman-only space with him, is simple self-defence. The man has already violated the law by being there. He has violated her safety and dignity. He knows this, and she knows this. They also both know that even if he is wearing a dress and abusing oestrogen, he will always be stronger than her and is capable of physically overpowering her. Her only hope of getting past him is to go for a vulnerable area, like the balls.

@Christinapple is determined to frame this as "people" attacking other "people" for no reason. But in the real world, we all understand that what's being discussed is women doing the little we can to defend ourselves against men. If a man has entered a space where he knows women are vulnerable - despite knowing the law forbids it - then, yes, women are going to assess him as a threat. If that man is an autogynephile, whose fetish has become so extreme it has consumed his entire life and he must now enact it 24/7, then women will evaluate him as even more of a threat. We don't see the dress and lipstick and oestrogen man-boobs and think "Oh, a fellow women! Nothing to fear!" Quite the opposite, in fact.

You can try to frame this survival instinct as prejudice all you want, @Christinapple , but outside of TRA echo chambers, no-one is ever going to agree with you. Being wary of strange males who violate our boundaries, and being creeped out by sexual fetish, are instincts that have protected women for generations. They're not some terrible prejudice without solid foundation. You can guilt trip all you like, but this stuff is life or death for us, and you won't get very far.

So. A woman punching a creep in the bathroom? Self-defence. Glad we cleared that up. Now let's look at the examples of TRA-on-TERF violence you think are the same thing.

A man punching a woman because he doesn't like her opinion? Not self-defence.

A group of men trying to crush a woman in a crowd, because they don't like her opinion? Not self-defence.

A group of men trying to break through police protection and assault a woman speaking words they don't like? Not self-defence.

A man throwing a container of soup (which could be acid, for all she knows in the moment) over a woman, to try and frighten her out of speaking words he doesn't agree with? Not self-defence.

And finally we ask ourselves: you've brought up two men you view as dangerous in this thread. You've invited us to compare them, so I will. Graham Linehan vs 'Sarah Jane' Baker. Which man is most likely to make the leap from words to violence? Which man is the greater threat? Is it: the comedian whose most 'violent' act is throwing another man's phone on the ground in a scuffle? Or is the mentally-unstable man who has served years in prison for violently raping and murdering a woman? In the real world, we all know which of these men is in "five armed officer" territory.

What do TERFs want? Well, it would be nice if your lot would stop being so disingenuous, for a start. It would be nice if you recognised the reality of violence against women. And it would be nice if you'd stop with the pathetic false equivalencies. Graham Linehan has not "incited violence against trans people and their supporters", and you know it. Your own side has been disgraceful, and you know it. You just want to play the victim and shut down women and our hurty, hurty words, because you can't stand to hear them. We see through it and we're sick of it. Cut out the DARVO and find some integrity. That's what we want.

Don't worry. We won't hold our breath.

Dominoodles · 04/09/2025 13:44

Um... anyone making violent threats against another person should be punished? Regardless of who and why?

Not sure why you think that any of us are arguing otherwise

Maray1967 · 04/09/2025 13:47

Catiette · 04/09/2025 09:53

The fundamental - and, to me, fairly clear - difference between the Lineham post and those you cite in the OP is that Lineham's reference to "punching" is in reference to an illegal action and consequent potential physical threat, whereas the other threats of aggression are advocated as a response to an individual either expressing their opinions, or simply having certain opinions.

This is a huge difference.

I think being male may make this distinction more difficult to comprehend, though. As females, we're intensely conscious of our physical vulnerability to stronger males, and the statistically proven proportionate risk of violence that they present to us, so the difference in your two sets of examples is painfully plain.

Yes, exactly.

OP, I expect 1. The male person should not be in the women’s toilets in the first place. 2. He should leave when his presence is challenged. 3. Women have the right to call for assistance to ensure his removal.

If all that fails, the male person can be considered to pose a threat to the woman.

If I find a burglar in my house, where he has no right to be, I will not have a polite and friendly conversation with him about his identity.

midgetastic · 04/09/2025 13:52

I can’t imagine any woman I know taking seriously advise to punch someone in the balls - women just tend not to do that

Most women will leave the room rather than physically attack anyone . When faced with an attack most women won’t fight back. The risks are too great.

that aside no one should promote violence and I can’t understand why OP thinks I condone that kind of thing?

Negroany · 04/09/2025 13:57

Namelessnelly · 04/09/2025 12:48

youve never heard of SING

solsr plexus
instep
nose
groin

its a technique used in self defence. I’d I’m cornered by a large man who is where he has no business to be and won’t leave when asked, of course I’ll feel threatened. What innocent reason can a male be in female facilities for if he’s not maintenance or a cleaner?

No, never heard of it. Sorry.

OneCleverEagle · 04/09/2025 14:06

PaterPower · 04/09/2025 10:10

Indeed. And I don’t believe I’ve ever seen Glinner criticise the LGB. Just the actions of some of the T.

I don't think any GC person has a problem with the LGB, it's just the T and their allies that cause all the trouble.

CohensDiamondTeeth · 04/09/2025 14:06

Negroany · 04/09/2025 12:32

I don't think anyone should be punching anyone and I don't think anyone should be suggesting it even as a last resort.

And I said "suggestion of violence in his tweet" in his tweet, not "violence in his tweet".

Interesting that your defence of his wording seems to be that it's reasonable to punch someone (as long as you have done two other things first). His defence was that it was a joke based on the relative height of women v men. So, despite the fact that he actually wrote it, you seem to think he had a different motivation than he claims.

Obviously, as you would see if you read my post rather than just jumping down my throat, I also abhor the call to violence against "TERFS". As I said, I don't think anyone should incite (autocorrect error in my original) violence.

So say a man enters the female toilets or changing rooms where I might be semi undressed, he won't leave when I ask him, or when I call the police. I cannot escape because he is between me and the door.

Say this hypothetical man comes towards me. I don't know if he is going to attack me, or maybe since we are doing a hypothetical scenario, lets say he does attack me. I scream he doesn't stop or leave. I use my phone to dial 999 and he doesn't stop or leave.

Lets say I am one of the few women for whom the instinctive response is not flight or fawn, but fight and I try to fight him off, possibly managing to land a punch to the balls... you wouldn't condone my violence?

What do you think I should do in that situation? Just let him do whatever he likes to me? Ok then...

SidewaysOtter · 04/09/2025 14:13

Namelessnelly · 04/09/2025 12:48

youve never heard of SING

solsr plexus
instep
nose
groin

its a technique used in self defence. I’d I’m cornered by a large man who is where he has no business to be and won’t leave when asked, of course I’ll feel threatened. What innocent reason can a male be in female facilities for if he’s not maintenance or a cleaner?

I've not heard of SING but we were taught to go for the eyes or the groin.

Arran2024 · 04/09/2025 14:13

Christinapple · 04/09/2025 09:36

They want any LGBT person or supporter who makes a threat of violence arrested? Correct? For an example there was Sarah Jane Barker who made a "if you see a TERF, punch 'em in the face!" comment. There was a Glasgow protest where someone held up a cardboard sign with a guillotine crudely drawn with a crayon and "decapacitate TERFs" or something scrawled. These happened years ago and to this day the GC community still talk about and refer to them and say they should have been arrested/charged/convicted.

For another example a trans person a while back jokingly posted something like "let's give KJK a NZ welcome" on twitter which then led to a lot of angry GC people from here making police reports and brigading them (someone posted a link on here and lots went over to be abusive directly to her).

And then Graham Linehan threatens to/incites others to punch trans people in their genitalia (not his first time btw, he has a long track record of threatening and inciting abuse and violence towards LGBT people and their supporters), and yet these same GC people flock to twitter to say that it's "free speech" and "people shouldn't be arrested for online communications".

So what is it to be? If you want LGBT people arrested and charged for threats then GL would need charged too.

If you want GL to have a "legal pass" to make threats then that means it should be the same for all including LGBT people and allies.

Whatever the law is it needs to apply to everyone equally. You can't have one rule for GCs and another rule for LGBT people and allies.

Just look at the Let Women Speak gatherings, the attempts to show a gender critical fim at Edinburgh University etc and the abuse that trans activists have dolled out, some of it very threatening - and the police do nothing.

Gender critical people are reported and the police act. Trans activists are left alone.

Sophie Molly keeps taking pics in the ladies and defiantly posting them on X. So here's one thing we can start with - he needs to stop.

Boiledbeetle · 04/09/2025 14:18

CohensDiamondTeeth · 04/09/2025 14:06

So say a man enters the female toilets or changing rooms where I might be semi undressed, he won't leave when I ask him, or when I call the police. I cannot escape because he is between me and the door.

Say this hypothetical man comes towards me. I don't know if he is going to attack me, or maybe since we are doing a hypothetical scenario, lets say he does attack me. I scream he doesn't stop or leave. I use my phone to dial 999 and he doesn't stop or leave.

Lets say I am one of the few women for whom the instinctive response is not flight or fawn, but fight and I try to fight him off, possibly managing to land a punch to the balls... you wouldn't condone my violence?

What do you think I should do in that situation? Just let him do whatever he likes to me? Ok then...

And if you could put a smile on your face whilst he does it that would be grand.

Turnups · 04/09/2025 14:19

They - we - want the same rules about threats of violence to be applied to everyone. But a suggestion of violence as a last resort against a man insisting on entering a female-only space is not the same as advocating violence against anyone who holds an opinion with which you disagree.

We want trans people to obey the law, and not try to unilaterally change the meaning of the word "woman" while trying to prevent the matter even being discussed.

We want to be able to say what the vast majority of people in the world know, and have always known - that other than the tiny proportion of unfortunate people with DSDs humans come in two sexes and cannot change from one to the other - without being accused of being hateful bigots.

We want female-only spaces, sports, awards and opportunities, all of which were created for a good reason, to remain for females only.

We want recognition that gender ideology, with its insistence on old-fashioned gender stereotypes, is not progressive but regressive. A man who wants to present in ways traditionally associated with women should be able to do so without having to deny that he’s a man.

We want an end to the imbecilic idea that if the mantra "trans women are women" is repeated often enough it will suddenly become true. We want acknowledgement that transwomen are a sub-category of men.

But you knew all that.

CohensDiamondTeeth · 04/09/2025 14:26

Boiledbeetle · 04/09/2025 14:18

And if you could put a smile on your face whilst he does it that would be grand.

Of course!

And then (in this hypothetical situation) if I report that attack I'll have to make sure I don't "misgender" him, because he's one of the most oppressed and vulnerable groups ever and of course we wouldn't want the violent man's feelings hurt!

That oppressed vulnerability that he made obvious by breaking the law and being where he shouldn't have been in the first place and then (hypothetically) attacking me!