Women's 'Private Spaces'

[Howseitgoin]

Clearly private spaces for women are considered a necessity by many due to a propensity for male sexual violence. Given this threat is much greater by orders of magnitude in the work place as opposed to public bathrooms, isn't it inconsistent not to demand private spaces there as well?
Thoughts?

Many companies/workplaces already do advise staff to protect themselves by not being alone in compromising situations.

"Isolated instances aren't necessarily considered meaningful statistical data. IE you would need a percentage over a threshhold to be considered relevant."

So @Howseitgoin , since you are keen on statistics maybe you can answer this. Let's consider UK incidents because we have the stats for the number of male people with transgender identities who are convicted and currently in prison in the UK to use as a guide to how there is no lowering of that male pattern of behaviour with any stage of transition.

How many additional women and girls being attacked or harmed in anyway in female single sex spaces are acceptable to you before we can expect to exclude ALL male people above the age of 8 years old?

1? We have already passed this number in the UK? 2? That is already reached as well.

Care to put a number on the additional female people that you feel should be acceptable to be harmed while people focus on your choice of political aim rather than the one that removes all male people above about 8 years old?

Do you think ignoring what the majority of women say they need for their safety, privacy and dignity is a great example of human rights practice?

"Why do you think what a group of men want is more important than what women want OP? Men are the oppressors, not the victims, in this."

Um, there's such a thing as 'trans men' too…

Seems a little misogynistic to speak for all females…

Ok — so if there were solid evidence from an authoritative source that transwomen are over-represented amongst offenders that would be cause to exclude them, but there isn’t, so it’s unjustified. That’s your view.

Now we’ve got the basis of your claim straight we can have a much more productive debate.

Is your claim that transwomen aren’t more dangerous than females or than males by the way?

In the UK there may be one or two single occupancy toilets in smaller cafes or restaurants, that anyone can use. But they are single occupancy with integral basin and fully lockable door - not communal facilities.

I could not care less what countries which do not recognise female people's existence as a legal, sex based category think about the UK, to be honest.

When they remember that women's rights are also human rights, I might start giving a shit about their opinion on human rights issues. Until then, they can do whatever they think is best within their own borders and mind their own fucking business.

Who is saying that male people with transgender identities should be excluded from the workplace?

Your posts are not making sense. To me, this 'And that only proves my point that the workplace is a more dangerous place & adding trans women (0.025%) to the equation isn't going to change that' reads as a straw man argument.

We are referring to the poll. It was about women’s desire for male free spaces, no? “Trans men” ie women who identify as men are not what my comment was referring to but it’s certainly another tick on my bingo card so thanks 🙏

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5397900-what-would-you-actually-do-if-you-saw-a-transperson-in-the-wrong-toiletchanging-room-for-their-sex?reply=146681023&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

Howseitgoin · Today 06:32

C. Trans women being of a more feminine temperament are less inclined to violence

I'm afraid I can't take anyone who writes the above seriously.

Your point seems quite cryptic......making it necessary for people to work out your intention....are you aware of this?

Yes, were Karen White and Isla Bryson demonstrating a feminine temperament when they raped all those women?

"So ** , since you are keen on statistics maybe you can answer this. Let's consider UK incidents because we have the stats for the number of male people with transgender identities who are convicted and currently in prison in the UK to use as a guide to how there is no lowering of that male pattern of behaviour with any stage of transition."

Your statistics aren’t what you think they are:
Prison data

quite!

Yes, it is indeed highly misogynistic when women say that they are comfortable with trans identifying men in women's spaces and so the rest of us ought to be comfortable with it too.

'Equality' is a concept. A construction. Sex is a material reality the world over. Equality is not just about people being the same, but also about accommodating differences. Single sex facilities accomodate differences in a pragmatic way. But everyone has equal access to a necessary facility. Men in male facilities. Women in women's facilities and sometimes there may be an appropriate unisex facility.

Christ, what a load of absolute twaddle.

If you can’t explain things yourself, don’t bother linking them.

At least make an effort to provide a more neutral source. You can't really expect anyone to take seriously a report worded in such a way.

Again, you do not understand the principles of safeguarding.

You are quite incorrect here.

'evidenced harm' does not only include physical attack. Evidenced harm can be interpreted as being where female people self-exclude, it can mean where female have experienced distress at a male person being included in that space.

Those are not crimes that will be reported to the police or complaints recorded anywhere. There is no 'evidence' that you demand. Because female people's experiences about male people entering their spaces has not been deemed important enough to collect, OR has been deemed transphobic to collect and therefore avoided.

Male people with transgender identities do not 'belong' in female single sex spaces. So, that premise is also false from the start too.

Now we've moved from one misunderstanding of laws to another: trans people have exactly the same human rights in the UK as every other human. They also have their own 'extra' rights under the EA on the basis of gender reassignment. What male people - trans or otherwise - don't have is the right to use female sex-based rights. Obviously. Because they're male.

The "feminine temperament" soon evaporates when these men are told "no".

Men, in general, are not threatened by women in the same way as women are by men. It is male people who are the overwhelmingly perpertrators of sexual violence, fetishistic behaviours and so on.

Women are also smaller in general and have less physical strength. Men cannot become pregnant; although, of course, men should also have some dignity too and that is what male only facilities provide.

This is a discussion forum. We’re all busy people. The case can be made here, if you link “evidence” you need to be able to explain how and why it supports your case. On the thread itself. So that people can engage and point out why they disagree with that claim and think your evidence is unconvincing. Don’t just lazily link Medium articles by misogynistic men shrieking about nazis because women campaign for vulnerable women not to have to share prisons with violent men.

Where is the data you are relying on to support your premises?

I don’t see anything in your reply that ‘proves’ anything. You don’t seem to be even really trying tbh.