What would you actually do if you saw a transperson in the wrong toilet/changing room for their sex?

[FattyMcFattyArse]

I've been pondering this ever since the FWS decision and since I saw an obviously male transperson using the ladies at a service station. I initially froze and wanted to say something, but all my Britishness and female social conditioning made me just mutter under my breath and walk away in disgust.

What would you do?

What have you done?

What is the right thing to do?

They don't belong there, according to the law.

No, it's not a big mess. It's so simple.

Men go in mens toilets.
Women go in womens toilets.

That's it.

ABOUT Q ANGLES - Just one of the many key differences between male and female body cues.

If you believe in fair competition, Emily Bridges should not be racing Laura Kenny

Owen Slot, The Times, 29th March 2022

https://archive.is/u4oSa

^www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3081c8c0-af7c-11ec-8b8c-0207c0fd6104?shareToken=dfc4c5b36b407a8e0ccc2133e718b121^

"Biomechanically, though, she still retains distinct advantages. The athletes she will be competing against have naturally wider hips. For the purposes of powering a bicycle, the crucial element here is that they will have a wider angle between the hips and the knees — this means their quads do not work so efficiently in transferring power."

Crucially, it is these angles that are quite important in understanding who is a male person and who is a female person when looking at gait, stance and other movement. All without judging a person's body based on whether they are 'woman' enough.

Ah I must apologise then, I have completely misunderstood. Sorry. I thought it was about being safe and private which I 100% agree with. I missed the communal aspect of it totally. I must say that I have never seen going to the loo as a communal activity at all but clearly I am massively in the minority. Point taken.

We need @Keeptoiletssafe back again.

But just to take one example.

If you have this type of toilets in a busy area where lots of people need to use them, you're going to spend much longer in a queue for the toilet (and be much more likely to find there is no toilet paper when you get there) because you can only fit a much smaller number of fully enclosed toilets in the space compared to traditional single sex toilets with cubicles.

And if it's not a busy area, what's to stop a man pushing you into an enclosed toilet when no one is looking and raping you once the door is shut and locked and any passers by are none the wiser?

There are more and more trans surgeries, i.e. facial feminisation surgery. I'm aware that I might not notice a transwomen. I don't see that as an argument for allowing all in. Evidently I would prefer transwomen not to break the law and women's boundaries.

Its interesting that on transgender Reddit many are complaining about the campaign to make the Ladies Pond at Hampstead Heath biological women only. There's some gardening still. There's a (larger) mixed pond. Women have complained to have been watched naked by transwomen intact men.

Not OP, that's me. I think you mean ThatCalmCat.

Just going to repeat this post:

For anyone who wants to know what should be considered for evaluating risk of this sub group of males to show that they have a risk level not less than any other male in the UK of committing sex crime, have a read through the statistics for males who have transgender identities who commit sex crimes in the UK

Firstly, This was a question answered earlier this year:

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20298.

Question from Rebecca Paul (MP Reigate): To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, with reference to the HMPPS Offender Equalities Annual Report 2023-2024, published on 28 November 2024, how many of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female were convicted of a sexual offence.

Answer from Sir Richard Dakin (MP Scunthorpe): 23 December 2024
Of the 245 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as male (i.e. those who now identify as women, non-binary or gender-fluid) on 31 March 2024, 151 were convicted of a sexual offence. This includes both contact and non-contact sexual offences. Offence data was not available for 1 individual.

Of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female on 31 March 2024, the number convicted of a sexual offence is five or fewer. We do not provide exact data for such small sample sizes as it risks identification of individuals. This approach is in line with our standards on data disclosure.

To put this into perspective with what we already knew from FOI information. I posted the information to a regular poster from FWR on another thread, who did not acknowledge the information at all, so it seems sticking the info here is appropriate:

Here is data from the MoJ

Here is an FOI request from 30 April 2024

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/populationoftransgenderoffend/response/2641337/attach/html/7/FOI%20240322022%20Annex%20A.xlsx.html

Up to the 31st March 2023, the MoJ stated that of the 88 male transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was
48 rapes,
0 attempted rapes,
10 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
13 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
0 indecent assault or gross indecency
6 sexual activity with a child under 16
0 other

77 listed here.... BUT there is a total of 88 in the total so there is 11 crimes not noted.

Possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child has not been recorded in this FOI.

However, there is are further discrepancies in the data of the following when you look at TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE.

1 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity
3 rapes
2 sexual activity with a child under 16
3 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,

This equals 9 additional... however the sum for TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE is 99.

Therefore 2 more sex crimes have been hidden from this data.

There were 203 males who were declared as transgender in the prison at the time.

There were 24 NB who were not segregated into male and female. What is key here, is that THIS IS NON-GRC HOLDERS. And we all know that males holding GRCs have increased and they are excluded from this data. NO female people with transgender identities were sentenced to a principal sexual offence. There were 41 female people with transgender identities in UK prisons at that time.

As a comparison, I have stats that say as of April 2019 that the general male MoJ data for male sex offenders was just 16.8% of the male prison population.
And there were 3.3% of female people in UK prisons were sex offenders.

I will leave you to do your own sums. But... even using the figure of 88/203 is 43.3%. (And that doesn't include making or possessing indecent photographs of a child remember.)

By the way this exercise was done in 2021. And I checked this data myself from the data source and it was correct at the time. So, it will give some back ground to the above.

The ones that say that in the March/April 2021 data collection period, the MoJ stated that of the 97 transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was
40 rapes,
8 attempted rapes,
31 possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child,
32 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
20 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
10 indecent assault or gross indecency
9 sexual activity with a child under 16
27 other

The 97 sex offender transgender prisons collected 177 sentences between them.

And that according to that FOI 197 prisoners are transgender.

This is why NO SUB GROUP OF MALE PEOPLE SHOULD BE EXEMPT FROM RISK ASSESSMENT. This group of male people still retain the same male pattern of committing sex and violent crime.

to be fair that is something I was talking about with a friend the other day but I think sadly that could potentially happen anywhere. There are quite a few pubs and restaurants in old buildings in london where both the loos are down the stairs and along a corridor and I had mentioned that if no one else was around then a man coming down the stairs could easily force someone into either of the loos and no one would notice

Of course I realise that and I know I've worded it badly. In my limited experience I've met transgender women who are women in their life and you can tell that, and I've seen men who are wearing make-up, dresses and heels but are clearly not women and would have no place in a women's toilet. That's all I meant.

@Rasell, I appreciate your honesty in saying that you are quite new to considering this issue. Some of us have been talking about this for at least ten years. We are somewhat jaded and short on patience so please excuse me if I come across as blunt.

In your post at 23:05, it is not at all clear whether you are talking about males who believe themselves to be women, or females who believe themselves to be men. Perhaps you can clarify?

But very simply: males should use men’s facilities and females should use women’s facilities. This is the case regardless of what they are wearing or whether they have taken cross-sex hormones or had surgery to make them look more like the opposite sex. This has always been the case and was clarified in a Supreme Court judgement in April this year.

Exactly.

Not to mention someone could collapse in the loo from a stroke, heart attack, epileptic fit etc, and in an enclosed loo it would be ages before they were found.

If they were in a cubicle in a single sex loo then either another person in there would spot them immediately and raise the alarm, or at worst they'd be found by the next person who needed the loo.

No transgender women are ‘women in their life’. They just aren’t women at all. They can’t be women because they’re male.

Even if you personally believe that they are ‘women in their life’, I still don’t understand how you can tell these men from men who just enjoy wearing lipstick. Can you explain how you tell the difference?

While I understand that some people don't have a problem with who uses female single sex spaces, other female people do have a problem. It is not just about safety, it is about privacy too.

Toilets are not just used behind a closed cubicle door. There are quite a few aspects of female toilet usage that happen in the public space, or even now still occur with a toilet door jammed open.

Well from my personal experience here is a list.

I have had to use the toilet while having a pram / pushchair jammed into the door with groceries.

I have had to have my mum use the public toilet because the disable toilet was not available and had her wheelchair jammed in the door because I couldn't leave her sit to move it and shut the door.

I have had breastmilk leaks / children's vomit / food spilled on my clothes and needed to have an unbuttoned top to dry the top under the hand drier.

I have come across other women quite regularly washing out their tops or their skirts etc and drying them enough to put back on .

I have friends who have miscarried in toilets and needed assistance and for that to be female people to make it more comfortable.

If you as a female person have not experienced these issues, that doesn't mean it is not happening. I am glad that you have never needed to do this things, it is uncomfortable and can be quite humiliating. But at least, in a female only toilet, it is a little better.

I think when people think of toilet usage, maybe they have never had to use the toilets in any other way other than behind a closed door. But the needs are still there and they are real for many female people to be able to engage in public life.

By the way, I posted this earlier in the thread and a poster accused me of 'exposing myself' because I had to use a toilet with my child's pram jamming the door open. This is the level that people who prioritise male people getting access to female toilets will resort to. If that poster was a mother, they obviously lived a very privileged life where they either had toilets for parents provided, or never once had to use public transport to get supplies for their family while having no choice but to shop alone. I wish that all mothers had that privilege, but we don't.

How can you tell which male person is a 'woman' in their life and which male person is just just in make up and dresses?

Genuinely. How do you tell this?

R.e. what about gender neutral loos? Well quite, safety aspects not withstanding, but many transwomen men are refusing to use them. They claim the "right" to use women's.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2025/06/18/why-are-men-still-barging-into-womens-toilets/

Any man, however he identifies, however well he 'passes' has a choice. Use the women's (which is against the law) or use the men's (correct for his sex).

Any man who chooses the former is a risk to women by this choice alone.

@waitingfordoggo I mean both. Thank you for the clarification.

To any one who is supporting male people to use female single sex spaces,

What exactly is the difference between a male who has had their penis and testicles removed due to injury or disease and a male person who elects to have them removed for their identity?

Maybe we need a reminder.

No male person can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.

How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

By the way.

As it was clear I was referring to queuing for toilets and toilets only, I have several male friends and colleagues who tell me just how uncomfortable they are having to cue with women to get into those lines of single cubicle toilets. Male people don't like them either.

I know some of them who will walk away from those sorts of queues.

I saw a TRANSw in the toilets and he was just standing there alone. Not using a cubicle nor washing his hands. Just loitering it appeared. I just said ‘sorry, I thought it was the Ladies’ turned and walked out. He followed shortly after me and looked grumpy. He never said anything to me I assume because my DH and children were waiting outside.

"Not my Nigella"

In what sense would it be more “valid” than a man’s one? Odd question.

When you're in a pub and you see a door with a sign saying 'private' or 'staff only' on it, do you push it? Go inside?

No? Why not? You could.

But what would be assumed is that you were up to no good.

There is no good reason for men to go into women's spaces.

That’s a good way to handle it, might do that in future.