What would you actually do if you saw a transperson in the wrong toilet/changing room for their sex?

[FattyMcFattyArse]

I've been pondering this ever since the FWS decision and since I saw an obviously male transperson using the ladies at a service station. I initially froze and wanted to say something, but all my Britishness and female social conditioning made me just mutter under my breath and walk away in disgust.

What would you do?

What have you done?

What is the right thing to do?

They don't belong there, according to the law.

It must be absolutely awful being so unremarkable a women that trans people existing makes you angry.

MALES existing does not make women angry. Males violating our safe single sex spaces, does make us angry.

I totally get this.

Ah yes.

The ‘if you cannot accept male people in your single sex space, you should just stay home’ argument.

Good to see it.

How would you know he wasn't bothering anyone else, though? A man in a place in whiich he is not expected, and should not be, would bother many women, even if they did not react overtly.

in fact a man knowingly entering a female only space, and possibly dressed up as a woman too, might well be even more unsettling than a man who had accidentally come into the wrong facility.

I'm rather hoping @Velmy is just trying to be provocative. If this is really what she thinks that is deeply, deeply sad

And there are about 12,000 cis men in prison for sexual offences as we speak.

Yet what dominates the national news headlines, the everyday discourse, and the trending topics on MN? The 150-odd trans ones.

I’m not saying we should ignore sex offences committed by trans people. I’m just saying the balance of discourse is wayyyy off.

If we want to protect as many women and girls as we can, talking endlessly about toilets isn’t the way to do it. It’s a distraction and it’s incredibly frustrating.

No women are uncomfortable because someone is trans - they are wary of being alone with a male stranger and often more comfortable performing biological functions in the presence of their own sex - menstruation, post birth issues, menstrual flooding in menopause, miscarriage. Having to leave the toilet door open while mustering a toddler or two and a baby in a pram.,,,

In practice? Nothing. I might not notice, and if I did, I wouldn’t do anything.

But it’s such a circular argument. Yes the number of femme-presenting male people likely to commit a sexual crime is very small overall (particularly in a toilet). But there isn’t really any convincing reason to separate transwomen as a group from men. People who transition are human beings exactly like those who don’t. Whereas there are convincing reasons to separate men from women. One of those being that there is a group of men who are sexually aroused by being in a space in which women are undressing or peeing. And some of those are particularly aroused by the fact that the women don’t get to choose whether they are there or not. And there are no reactions by the women that are not included in those men’s fantasies. So the simplest way to reduce the number of times in which women are forced to be part of those men’s sexual lives without consent is to provide female toilets and changing rooms. Hence the Equality Act, as clarified by the Supreme Court.

It's such a ridiculous and melodramatic trope to say women are against "trans people existing".

No we are not. Exist away. Trans people are humans like any other human is and deserve to live in peace with all the same human rights as anyone else. Those with genuine gender dysphoria, properly diagnosed as a mental health condition causing them immense distress deserve our compassion.

But existing does not mean bullying their way into women's spaces, sports, rape crisis groups or women's refuges and forcing women to kowtow to this invasion of their safety and privacy.

Yes, re-badge males as 'trans'. That loophole somehow changes the narrative.

Yet the fact still remains that they are male. In every single way. Just wearing a dress. As a meme I once saw says: 'if dresses removed male violence and predation, we would have made males wear dresses hundreds of years ago.'

They genuinely think a male in a dress is somehow 'safer' because of that dress. These are shallow surface thinkers.

I can assure you I am a human.

For anyone who wants to know what should be considered for evaluating risk of this sub group of males to show that they have a risk level not less than any other male in the UK of committing sex crime, have a read through the statistics for males who have transgender identities who commit sex crimes in the UK

Firstly, This was a question answered earlier this year:

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20298.

Question from Rebecca Paul (MP Reigate): To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, with reference to the HMPPS Offender Equalities Annual Report 2023-2024, published on 28 November 2024, how many of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female were convicted of a sexual offence.
Answer from Sir Richard Dakin (MP Scunthorpe): 23 December 2024

Of the 245 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as male (i.e. those who now identify as women, non-binary or gender-fluid) on 31 March 2024, 151 were convicted of a sexual offence. This includes both contact and non-contact sexual offences. Offence data was not available for 1 individual.
Of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female on 31 March 2024, the number convicted of a sexual offence is five or fewer. We do not provide exact data for such small sample sizes as it risks identification of individuals. This approach is in line with our standards on data disclosure.

To put this into perspective with what we already knew from FOI information. I posted the information to a regular poster from FWR on another thread, who did not acknowledge the information at all, so it seems sticking the info here is appropriate:

Here is data from the MoJ
Here is an FOI request from 30 April 2024
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/populationoftransgenderoffend/response/2641337/attach/html/7/FOI%20240322022%20Annex%20A.xlsx.html

Up to the 31st March 2023, the MoJ stated that of the 88 male transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was
48 rapes,
0 attempted rapes,
10 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
13 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
0 indecent assault or gross indecency
6 sexual activity with a child under 16
0 other

77 listed here.... BUT there is a total of 88 in the total so there is 11 crimes not noted.

Possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child has not been recorded in this FOI.

However, there is are further discrepancies in the data of the following when you look at TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE.

1 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity
3 rapes
2 sexual activity with a child under 16
3 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,

This equals 9 additional... however the sum for TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE is 99.

Therefore 2 more sex crimes have been hidden from this data.
There were 203 males who were declared as transgender in the prison at the time.

There were 24 NB who were not segregated into male and female. What is key here, is that THIS IS NON-GRC HOLDERS. And we all know that males holding GRCs have increased and they are excluded from this data. NO female people with transgender identities were sentenced to a principal sexual offence. There were 41 female people with transgender identities in UK prisons at that time.

As a comparison, I have stats that say as of April 2019 that the general male MoJ data for male sex offenders was just 16.8% of the male prison population.

And there were 3.3% of female people in UK prisons were sex offenders.

I will leave you to do your own sums. But... even using the figure of 88/203 is 43.3%. (And that doesn't include making or possessing indecent photographs of a child remember.)

By the way this exercise was done in 2021. And I checked this data myself from the data source and it was correct at the time. So, it will give some back ground to the above.

The ones that say that in the March/April 2021 data collection period, the MoJ stated that of the 97 transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was
40 rapes,
8 attempted rapes,
31 possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child,
32 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
20 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
10 indecent assault or gross indecency
9 sexual activity with a child under 16
27 other

The 97 sex offender transgender prisons collected 177 sentences between them.

And that according to that FOI 197 prisoners are transgender.
This is why NO SUB GROUP OF MALE PEOPLE SHOULD BE EXEMPT FROM RISK ASSESSMENT. This group of male people still retain the same male pattern of committing sex and violent crime, at ANY STAGE OF TRANSITION.

Still male, though. And still should not be in there.

Personally it is the "dedication to the female persona" that i find most uncomfortable. i see these men around my city quite frequently, and the very close attention to feminine accoutrements or poses gives off an 'odd' feel that alerts me straight away.

how do you know those are “cis”“ men! I thought we weren’t supposed to assume people’s gender? So can you explain how letting males into female facilities will help women and girls and prevent male violence. If not, and there is no benefit to women and girls, why do you want males in female spaces?

I gave you the love emoji as in "bless".
To be so naive, must be lovely.

Let's hope you don't ever meet just one predator of that small percentage, on your own in the ladies and get accosted.

You'll be using the word bastard then alright.
But as you can see, most mumsnetters will support you if that awful thing should happen.
Only a few will be uncompassionate, unfeeling and uncaring.
As you can see.

Good luck in that big, wide world with the 'poor bastards' who don't give a shit about womens rights. Or scaring girls and making them uncomfortable.

The poor bastards.....

Several years ago I reported a male about 12 who was in the open plan female changing room just watching woman and girls change. He was just sat there with his Mum and sister. I said to his Mum he looks too old to be in female changing room the age limit is 8. She said he's not hurting anyone he's quiet. 🤷I reported as I left and told the manager I don't pay membership for perverts to watch me change. Manager asked him to wait outside for his Mum and sister. There is a very nice coffee area he could have waited in. There is no excuse for males whether dressed as females or not to be on female spaces and especially open plan spaces.

So your answer is instead of defending our hard won spaces, women should just self-exclude from society....

No one going to have a stab at answering the above?

Who would let a 6year old go in to the toilet on their own.

The thing is people who adopt trans identities ( for whatever reason or motivation) are not a different kind of human being. They remain either male or female like the rest of us. We all exist. And we are all either male or female.

We have single sex spaces, services and categories in order to protect and safeguard female dignity ( primarily, since it is males who are more likley to be predatory or fetishistic) and the privacy of one's sex in certain types of imtimate public situation.

Not answering the question.

The trans identifying men do not dominated the news headlines. How many of them can you name?

If trans identifying men stayed out of womens spaces, they wouldnt dominate the discussion. You are blaming women for noticing men behaving in inappropriate ways.

So 62% (!!!) of men who identify as women in custody are there for sex offences.

What % of the other men in custody are there for sex offences?

What % of women are there for sex offences?

What does this suggest in terms of this particular cohort of men? That they are more like women or are actually more risky than non trans identifying males?

Also worth considering that at a conservative estimate, one in four women are rape victims.

However from various studies on sex offending
There is a clear correlation between transwomen and sex offending
It is the main criminal act they would commit

Thats before we even start considering women’s rights to privacy and dignity

This from a Swedish study