What would you actually do if you saw a transperson in the wrong toilet/changing room for their sex?

[FattyMcFattyArse]

I've been pondering this ever since the FWS decision and since I saw an obviously male transperson using the ladies at a service station. I initially froze and wanted to say something, but all my Britishness and female social conditioning made me just mutter under my breath and walk away in disgust.

What would you do?

What have you done?

What is the right thing to do?

They don't belong there, according to the law.

I've done a fair bit of research over the past few years and sought out content not just academic but also from transpeople themselves and various organisations on both sides of the debate, to try and understand them, what drives them and what their views are.

One thing that strikes me is that a lot of transpeople seem to really hate women. Like really despise them. At first I couldn't understand why they would want to BE women if they hated them so much. But I learned that this hatred often comes from knowing deep down that they cannot ever BE women, or be fully accepted in society as women, only ever a performative facsimile of one. And this makes them angry. The entitlement and ego is a major factor here. It seems this is more prevalent amongst the middle aged men who 'come out' as trans after long heterosexual marriages. They are more likely to be gay but won't accept it and resent the conventional life they feel they have been forced to live. And that resentment is deep and women are blamed for their wives' complicity in the relationship. Even though their poor wives were duped into marriage on a falsehood. These are the men who secretly dressed up in their wives clothes for years. Fetishists. AGPs.

But what concerns me is their deep misogyny. It forms part of everything they want to be but cannot be.

I feel scared to be in a vulnerable place with men who hate women. Even more so when they are wolves in sheep's clothing, and other women are enabling them.

But what valid, innocent reason would a man have to use women’s facilities, knowing his presence would make them uncomfortable. Would you be ok with any man in female spaces or just those claiming to be women?

I don't assume that.

I do assume that they are getting off on it, though. If you think they're not, I've another bridge to sell you...

Has happened to me in isolated supermarket ladies loo. It was just me and a small girl. I was just about to leave when he came in - no idea how he identified and he was wearing ordinary male jeans etc. I took ages washing my hands etc until I saw the little girl leave safely.

Only a fool with ingrained misogyny could consider that recognising the far greater risk of harm and ill intent by males however they identify ( borne out by all statistical analysis) is stirring up ‘ hate’. And it is concern about MEN not trans people that drives most women.

Women are unfortunately raped/sexually assaulted/leered at/flashed at. It's not even uncommon. Safety is one reason we have single sex spaces. Privacy, dignity are two other reasons.

Mixed sex spaces are more risky for women, statistically.

I don't assume men enter the ladies loos only to rape women. I think there are a spectrum of motivations

you've already acknowledged that there are women with heartfelt reasons for not wanting to be vulnerable or partially naked around men

do you think they should have access to toilets and changing rooms where they feel safe?

Thank you for looking out for the girl.

Trans people are less than 1% of the population. Let’s say for argument’s sake that trans women represent half of that group (and trans men the other half). In England and Wales, criminals represent 1.12% of the general population (based on the gov.uk statistic that there were 11.2 arrests for every 1000 people in England and Wales). It’s probably much less than that because that’s just arrests, not convictions.

My maths might not be perfect here, but add that up and we’re talking about 0.0056% of the population, or 5.6 per 100,000.

Based on the population of England and Wales, that’s about 3,000 people overall. And the percentage of criminals who are sex offenders is 3%. So in the whole of England and Wales, we’re talking about around 90 people who might be trans women and also sex offenders (and this is a massive overestimation based on arrests, not number of criminals).

Then you have to look at the fact that the overwhelming majority of sex offences are committed by people who are known to the victim, not strangers. (Only 12% are committed by strangers). So that cuts us down to 10 people, across the whole of England and Wales. Not accounting for repeat arrests / crimes committed by the same person.

Again, maths is far from perfect here and it’s probably a much lower figure than that. Then of those 108 people, we’re worried that they’re all going to choose a toilet as their preferred crime hotspot.

It’s very unlikely.

Of course, you might say that any chance of sexual assault is intolerable, and I’d agree with you there. However, I don’t think that this tiny tiny percentage is where we should all be focusing our attention.

The overwhelming statistical likelihood is that if you’re going to be attacked or abused, it’s going to be by a cis man. They don’t need to put on a dress to harm us, I’m afraid.

The problem is with men, and we are persecuting a small group of trans women because the powers that be have scapegoated them. It’s ridiculous and distracts us from the real problem, which is male violence against women.

Don’t be taken in by “look over there” politics. The problem is men. Trans women are just a distraction. Don’t fall for it.

Do you understand the basis of why single sex spaces exist? It is based on safeguarding risk assessment.

That safeguarding principle ‘assumes’ any male person has the same risk of committing violent or sex crimes against female people and therefore excludes them from
female single sex spaces. Perhaps you hadn’t thought that through in your accusations against people ‘demonising’ male people by this ‘assumption’.

However, either your posts lack the understanding of how safeguarding works or you believe that a sub-group of male people should be exempt from being considered male people for safeguarding?

And if you believe a sub-group of male people should be exempt, please provide evidence to support your point. Otherwise, can we assume that you wish to ‘demonise’ women who understand safeguarding better than you do?

trans women are men

they're part of the predator / oppressor group and part of the problem

men don't belong in women's single sex spaces what ever they're wearing

and frankly a man who is entering a space that he knows is set aside for women, where he knows he will make women uncomfortable is even more worrying than a bog standard one

Higher rate of offending for sexual offences
https://www.yahoo.com/news/government-figures-70-per-cent-183558245.html
Therefore an EVEN GREATER RISK than men who don't think they are women.

So ok. If you’re ok with sharing spaces with men, why don’t you use the unisex facilities with your trans brethren

Have done, for years. Yet to be attacked! 🥳

leave those women who do want single sex spaces to have them?

Please point out where I've said that women who want single sex spaces shouldn't have them.

I have, repeatedly, said that I wouldn't care if I saw a trans person in the loo/changing room.

the fact you’re not telling males with a trans identity to stop making women uncomfortable but telling women to “reframe their trauma” to make these males comfortable show you know fine well they’re not women, you just hate women

It's not my job to tell anyone anything. Much less to assume that another woman would be uncomfortable at the presence of a trans person.

Again, please point out where I've given my opinion on whether trans women are women or not. Or just crack on with putting words in my mouth.

It must be absolutely awful being so unremarkable a women that trans people existing makes you angry. Couldn't imagine it myself.

Well given this, I'd say you're stats are way off...

'Of the 245 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as male (i.e. those who now identify as women, non-binary or gender-fluid) on 31 March 2024, 151 were convicted of a sexual offence. This includes both contact and non-contact sexual offences'

But transwomen are men. The sole criteria to be a transwoman is to be a man. Why should we let these men in female spaces but keep others out? If there is a problem with make violence against women, how will letting men into female spaces help women?

So, how many additional women and girls being attacked or harmed in anyway in female single sex spaces are acceptable to you before we can discuss and campaign to exclude ALL male people above the age of 8 years old?

1? We have already passed this number? 2? That is already reached as well.

Care to put a number on the additional female people that you feel should be acceptable to be harmed while people focus on your choice of political aim rather than the one that removes all male people above about 8 years old?

Transwomen are MEN. MALE. Males are 50% of the population. Not '1%'.

You don't get to take 1% of 50%, re-badge that 1% as 'transwomen' and say that that group of males are now 'safe'.

A male is a male, IS A MALE. And these transwomen are fully intact males and males in every way.

Why is a male in a dress, safer than a male in a suit and tie? Please do tell me, what is the difference?

Also, you are forgetting that we have female spaces for privacy and dignity away from the male gaze, not just for safety. It's not just about assault. It's about privacy and dignity away from males. A space to cry, to flee males, to seek help, miscarry, rinse out blood-stained underwear. It's about privacy and dignity. Not just about our risk of safety.

It’s great - and cynical PR - isn’t it, to accuse women - often mothers - of being motivated by hatred of trans people as a group. Makes one much more sympathetic to the ‘ victims’.

The truth of course is that most mothers I come across are not irrationally hate filled towards anyone. They - like the vast majority of women - are wary of strange MEN, however these men choose to identify. But that’s a far less objectionable attitude so it’s necessary for male trans activists to ignore this obvious fact and promote the trans issue not the male one.

It must be absolutely awful being so unremarkable a women that trans people existing makes you angry

jeez louise, you really can't help yourself can you?

The fact that you've been safely using mixed sex facilities bodes well for trans women using the gents. turns out men aren't that much of a danger and men in frocks can safely pee with them. great

Trans people don't make me angry. My best friend is a transwoman. And guess what? He doesn't use the women's toilet. Because he's not an arsehole.

Men that do absolutely have a choice about it and they are not doing it because they 'have to pee'.

I think if they are that bothered about changing/using a public toilet incase a man pops in, they'd feel much better not using them.

If the person I suspected was trans looked appropriate & was not bothering anyone, I'd leave them alone. I welcomed For Women Scotland, because I think women should have control of our private spaces, but I won't hassle people who are trying to pass & get on w their life. If the person was wearing a leather mini up to their buttcheeks w a bulge in the front, I'd see them as a threat, & report to security.

The lack of empathy for female people who need female single sex spaces on this thread is really concerning.

We have a poster celebrating that they have not been attacked, while demonising women who have posted that they have been attacked in the female toilets and demonising women who are survivors of male violence/sex attacks saying they don’t want to share a space that is supposed to be for female people only.

Once you see this dynamic, you cannot unsee it.

hang on. you think rape victims should self exclude from public life?

yikes. double punishment. yowsers

So I’m confused. If you’ve been using unisex spaces for years, why are you seeing transwomen in female spaces? Why are you not encouraging those males to use the unisex facilities. You’ve just said they’re safe. You seem very keen to scold women into allowing males into Into female spaces and seem rather irate women are saying no. Why are you putting the feelings of males above those of the women those spaces were designed for? Why do you hate women so much?