Single sex spaces

[piloswi]

I’m confused with single sex spaces and trans people and what people want.

My understanding is everyone must use the single sex space of their biological sex (I might be wrong). This is only spoken about in terms of trans women now having to use men’s toilets, etc. But this means trans men must use women’s toilets. So someone who looks like a man but biologically isn’t but mostly (imo) you can’t really tell with trans men whereas you often can with trans women.

Is this what the majority want? Surely if people are worried about ‘predatory men’ pretending to be a trans woman to use single sex spaces then they could equally claim to be a trans man as you can’t really ask them to prove it can you?

I guess I’m just wondering if I’m missing the point the point? Are the majority happy with this? I’ve seen posts of people being very happy with the ruling but only have spoken about trans women.

I don’t want this to be a trans bashing thread. Just would like to know what people would like to see as their ideal for single sex spaces while still respecting people

agree

It’s also worth mentioning the key points from that link I mentioned. As they are points that I come across time and time again.

KEY POINTS
• The increasing decline in public toilets is a threat to health, mobility, and equality.
• The lack of public toilets disproportionately affects people with ill health or disability, the elderly, women, outdoor workers and the homeless.
• Three in four of the UK public think there are not enough public toilets in their area.
• Knowledge of lack of facilities nearby acts as a ‘loo leash’, deterring as many as one
in five (20%) from venturing out of their homes as often as they would like. This rises
to over two in five (43%) among those with medical conditions requiring frequent
toilet use.
• Over half (56%) of the public restrict fluid intake due to concern over lack of toilet
facilities. Deliberate dehydration can seriously affect health and exacerbate existing medical problems.

It is unprecedented that so much has been about such a small % of people’s preferences in recent years. We need more toilets. We need toilets that are designed with health (cleanliness, ventilation) and safety (supervision, prevention of misuse) in mind. Unisex design is always going to be more problematical as it has privacy as a priority.

When a city the size of Bristol has a total of two council-run public lavatories, one in a cemetery and one in a park and neither near the centre, it's clear to any one of the half million plus who live there that something is a little wrong somehow.

We now have to rely on the owners of shopping malls and the like for facilities, and as far as I know they are not actually obliged to provide them. KTS, you'll know: what is the law on this? I wouldn't know where to look for a loo in say Redland or Clifton, or anywhere with small shops but not stores like for instance a big Sainsbury's or Tesco. Pubs might be prepared to allow someone desperate in to have a pee.

There’s no duty for councils to provide public toilets. The British Toilet Association have campaigned for this to be changed for years. They have also promoted community schemes where local councils seek to increase the provision of public toilets by encouraging private businesses (typically food and retail outlets) to make their toilets available to members of the public.

It’s fair to say no one knows how many toilets are available to people in this country. For council-run toilets it is estimated 1 toilet for every 15,000 people.

The ‘slack’ has been taken up by businesses. Pubs used to be the places people went out to a lot more and used their loos. In fact, British Standards first came about with expertise from publicans.

This is for workplaces:
https://www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/workplace-facilities/health-safety.htm

You are right to question about other venues as it is a grey area. I think it’s still true that under the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976, premises with 10 or more seats for consuming food or drink on-site are typically required to provide toilets for customers. Also you have to provide a toilet if you serve alcohol. However you always have to provide for staff so in practice customers ask to use that. This is where local councils rules and interpreting building regulations and guidelines come in - they might decide more favourably on a business prepared to maintain customer toilets or even better if they allow non-customers to use the toilet.

Thank you! That makes it all fairly clear.

So trans people could lobby for example local caffs and pubs and such to provide the loos they want, if they wanted to.

Yes but they would be better lobbying for accessible loos as that would capture more people’s needs. There’s still far too few accessible toilets. There seems to be a greater number of trans people with disabilities so that would capture all the cohort.

I have a horrible feeling that the transition and the disabilities may in some cases be cause and effect. It makes me cringe with horror, if I am honest: imagine doing something to yourself that you thought would make you feel better, and realising, too late, that you were now crippled as a result of what you'd done!