Single sex spaces

[piloswi]

I’m confused with single sex spaces and trans people and what people want.

My understanding is everyone must use the single sex space of their biological sex (I might be wrong). This is only spoken about in terms of trans women now having to use men’s toilets, etc. But this means trans men must use women’s toilets. So someone who looks like a man but biologically isn’t but mostly (imo) you can’t really tell with trans men whereas you often can with trans women.

Is this what the majority want? Surely if people are worried about ‘predatory men’ pretending to be a trans woman to use single sex spaces then they could equally claim to be a trans man as you can’t really ask them to prove it can you?

I guess I’m just wondering if I’m missing the point the point? Are the majority happy with this? I’ve seen posts of people being very happy with the ruling but only have spoken about trans women.

I don’t want this to be a trans bashing thread. Just would like to know what people would like to see as their ideal for single sex spaces while still respecting people

So if they pop a skirt on instead, that would be fine by you?

Could all the women who are not bothered by sharing intimate spaces with TiMs please put their efforts into lobbying for third spaces where they can mingle freely with no concern for their dignity or safety and the TiMs can be affirmed and validated to their hearts content, and leave women’s spaces the fuck alone? Thanks.

Hard agree. Speaking as a woman who had a total hysterectomy....

No transman has a penis.

Please can we just drop the feigned stupidity? It's ridiculous.

How are vulnerable teens, perhaps lacking in education supposed to make informed decisions when we get nonsense like 'transmen have a penis'.

It's the Big Lie. And they hope we don't notice or challenge it.

You can't change sex and grow a penis or have one surgically attached.

Exactly. It's criminal to plant these false ideas in young people's heads.

But language doesn't matter Keating (except when it's pronouns and it's apparently on a par with Himmler to insist on correctly sexing someone in a sexual harassment court case).

I will be so freaking happy when all this nonsense is behind us.

Ahh but. I believe people when they tell you who they are.

I am a trans woman and parent, and I respect women’s right to single sex spaces. I do not use women’s toilets or changing rooms because I understand why those boundaries exist.

That respect leaves me with only one option... the men’s toilets. I wish I could explain to people what it feels like to stand outside a door knowing that, once I walk through, I might face stares, comments, or worse. Some men see me and feel entitled to say something crude others visibly aggressive and threatening, others might follow me in. I keep my head down, move quickly, and hope I am left alone. It is not fear in the abstract. It is a calculation I make every single time.

So I often plan my day around avoiding public loos. I skip drinks before long journeys. I cut trips short. I have even left events early because I could not face taking the risk. It chips away at your freedom without most people ever noticing.

I am not asking to take away women’s spaces. I am asking how we can protect those spaces while also giving people like me somewhere safe to go. Because right now, when people say “just use the men’s”, what they are really saying is “take your chances”. They are saying that if I am cornered or attacked, that is my problem. They are telling me my safety matters less than their comfort in avoiding the conversation.

This is not about wanting validation. I do not care if strangers approve of me or not. I care about walking into a toilet and coming out again without being threatened, humiliated or hurt. I want to know I can wash my hands without watching the door like a hawk, without tensing every muscle in case someone blocks my way, without wondering if today is the day I meet the wrong man in the wrong place. That is not an unreasonable thing to want. It is the same basic safety everyone expects.

Because right now, when people say “just use the men’s”, what they are really saying is “take your chances”. They are saying that if I am cornered or attacked, that is my problem. They are telling me my safety matters less than their comfort in avoiding the conversation.

What kind of men would corner or attack you in the toilets? And why are we not addressing this appalling behaviour?

Is it really that hard?

We've been saying for ages, campaign for third spaces.

That is exactly the question we should be asking, because sadly the answer is not “none”.

It is not about saying all men would behave that way, but it only takes one to make the situation unsafe. A men’s toilet is an enclosed space with no easy exit, and if someone decides to be aggressive, there is nowhere to go. It might be verbal harassment, mocking, following me in, blocking my way, or in the worst cases, physical intimidation.

These things do happen, and they happen quickly. Most women already understand why they would not feel safe walking into a men’s loo at a pub late at night. The same risks apply to me, except that my difference can make me a specific target.

This is why it is not just about “getting over discomfort”... it is about recognising that some environments come with a real, proven risk that needs to be addressed.

The reality is that the UK trans population is tiny!! estimates put it at around 0.5 to 1 percent of the population. That is a very small group to try and mount an effective nationwide campaign, especially when many are already dealing with social stigma, safety concerns and the day-to-day challenges of just existing.

Feminist movements have shown how hard it is to bring about structural change, even when the group campaigning is much larger. It often takes solidarity from people outside the directly affected group to get real traction.

I completely agree that third spaces would be the ideal solution. My hope is that we can find common ground so that women who care about safety for themselves can also advocate for safety for others. We might have different reasons, but the goal, dignity and protection in public spaces is something we share.

It seems like it's men that you need to get on side, not women.

The vast majority of GC women are supportive of third spaces.

Even without third spaces - I have never in 50+ years seen any issue in a gents - all men walk in studiously avoiding the gaze of others - some go to the cubicles, some go to the urinals a few just the basins… none of them have the slightest interest in others…

now if you have a man dressed to try and look like a woman, maybe even a man who has hade surgery or hormones to fake the look, then of course that is likely to attract attention as men do now expect to see women in the gents and so it would raise comment - even more so when it is obviously a man pretending to be a woman!

there is choice and agency in this all… men have a choice how they present - they can never be women so there isn’t an issue of a ‘trans woman’ being a woman having issues it is a man who has chosen to stand out against societal norms and potentially gone to great effort to do so - hardly surprising that they cause comment - but ultimately they have made that choice, one assumes they are aware of the consequences - and yet still I have never seen any issues… not sure there are even many records of issues - we just hear from men who say that they have personal internal trauma from the choices they have made - I am sad for them but that doesn’t give them the right to take over female spaces - if you make choices you accept the consequences

Why is it for women to do this labour?

Honestly, whilst I sympathise I'm frankly at the point of thinking where we're all the vocal transwomen before saying how wrong it was that we were railroaded.

We have said for years third spaces are the way for a compromise. Given how much crowdfunding there is and lobbying going on, it wouldn't be too difficult to organise at this moment in time.

This still feels like force teaming women once again at this point and I'm so over that.

Such is the damage that has been done to good will.

The whole 'but won't someone think of the men' when no one has really stood by women is still trying to get women to centre males and really males should be looking for the support of others males not looking towards women as the default support human.

There are actually plenty of men who would stand by this cause. And that's what it really needs because it would also go some way to dealing with the appalling male attitudes out there too.

It's so nice to hear you and GC women support third spaces, because that tells me we agree on the goal. But we also both know from experience that agreeing something is right does not magically make it happen.

The reason this is such a fight is the same reason you have had to fight for women’s spaces in the first place.. men control the budgets, men design the buildings, men write the policies, and men rarely have to think about the reality of being unsafe in a toilet. They are not the ones planning their day around avoiding certain spaces or clenching their keys in their hand just to get back out safely.

Third spaces are not being blocked because women oppose them. They are being blocked because the men in charge do not see the need. To them, toilets are toilets. They have never had to factor in the risk of being cornered, mocked or attacked in one.

That is exactly why women’s support matters so much here. You have lived experience of male violence, of being dismissed when you raise safety concerns, and of having to fight for basic protections. When you speak up for third spaces, you bring credibility, numbers and pressure that men cannot easily ignore.
We might be facing different versions of the same problem, but the root cause is the same.. Men designing a world for themselves and expecting the rest of us to fit in.

Sorry - typo ‘men do not expect to see’ not now

In large organisations, they can have single sex and unisex facilities. Small providers tend to have single use. It’s the medium size that struggle. Hopefully, over time, with the clear understanding of their duties to cater for all (as opposed to inaccurate advice previously circulating) things should improve in terms of third spaces.

I also hope that, with the clarity given by the SC ruling, instead of vilifying women for wanting female only provision, attention with be given to males and what they can do to make the option for transwomen to use male provision feel less threatening.

Like I say, there is support.

But ultimately, you need to put in the hard yards yourselves. This is a problem, caused by men, against other men, in men's spaces.

Women have enough emotional labour on their plate and have to do enough cleaning up of men's poor behaviour to take on any more.

Everyone who presents in an unusual way meets pushback.

Goths, for example. Steampunk.
People with specific disabilities.
Very overweight people.

We all get looked at and have to brace ourselves. We get dirty looks. Women get a hell of a lot of it, to be honest. You sort of get used to tuning it out. Some people literally use headphones to allow them to ignore the unwanted commentary.

I hear what you are saying, and I am not asking women to carry this on their own or to centre men in the conversation. This is not about “won’t someone think of the men”, it is about people like me, who are already in danger, asking how we can get to a practical solution that protects everyone.

I agree completely that men should be taking far more responsibility here. They are the ones who design, fund and approve public facilities, and they are often the reason women and trans people alike have to fight for basic safety in the first place. Male violence, not women’s advocacy, is the root cause of this whole problem.

I also understand why you feel “forced teaming” has damaged goodwill, but this is where I see it differently. Third spaces are not a concession to men! they are a safeguard for anyone at risk from male behaviour, which includes women and trans people. Supporting them is not centring men, it is removing a weapon from them.

Nothing changes without numbers and noise. Movements have shown that collective pressure works, and women’s voices have historically been the ones that break through when speaking about safety in public spaces. I am not asking you to fight our battles for us, I am asking you to stand alongside me so we are not fighting against each other while the people with the power to fix this do nothing.

And I'm not buying the whole 'we're so small' argument. The TRA movement managed to get laws changed, captured multiple institutions, undermined decades of safeguarding for women and girls.

If TW really want third spaces, they can put some of that extensive resource into campaigning for them. It should be a drop in the ocean compared to all that.

I agree/support much of what you say, but the idea that women bring credibility and pressure that cannot be ignored. We have been discredited, ignored, belittled and dismissed on this very issue for years. The dilution lays in TRA changing their tactics and focus and trying to win over the men!