Single sex spaces

[piloswi]

I’m confused with single sex spaces and trans people and what people want.

My understanding is everyone must use the single sex space of their biological sex (I might be wrong). This is only spoken about in terms of trans women now having to use men’s toilets, etc. But this means trans men must use women’s toilets. So someone who looks like a man but biologically isn’t but mostly (imo) you can’t really tell with trans men whereas you often can with trans women.

Is this what the majority want? Surely if people are worried about ‘predatory men’ pretending to be a trans woman to use single sex spaces then they could equally claim to be a trans man as you can’t really ask them to prove it can you?

I guess I’m just wondering if I’m missing the point the point? Are the majority happy with this? I’ve seen posts of people being very happy with the ruling but only have spoken about trans women.

I don’t want this to be a trans bashing thread. Just would like to know what people would like to see as their ideal for single sex spaces while still respecting people

I would happily share my toilet with a trans man. Because they are biologically female like me. Easy pee-sy.

I'm not sure i care which toilet a trans man would use. I would settle for trans women using facilties that arent intended for females so that women can have a their own spaces away from men, however they identify.

A balanced solution is single sex provision and mixed sex provision so people who, for whatever reason, don’t want to use provision for their sex, have an alternative. This is also a legally sound option as it caters for the protected characteristics of sex and gender reassignment.

The supreme court ruling made it clear that it is lawful to exclude females with trans identities who pass as male to be excluded from female only provision - for reasons that shouldn’t need explaining. This too seems reasonable and proportionate.

So is the ruling that all trans people use men’s single sex spaces?

OP, the issue is really down to the Equality Act 2010, which makes it illegal to discriminate against people on the grounds of sex. It has exceptions to that, known as the single-sex exceptions, which means there are circumstances in which you CAN discriminate against people on the grounds of sex, eg changing rooms, sports, prisons, toilets, gay dating clubs etc.

"Sex" in the Equality Act means "biological sex" because, well, it has to, for consistency and clarity. If you want to change the Equality Act so that it says "single-sex spaces are allowed for one sex only, with the exception that women who identify as men should use the men's toilets", then feel free to lobby parliament to make it happen. Good luck with finding an argument that will persuade people.

No.

The ruling was that all people use the single sex spaces of the sex they belong to except in rare instances where they might cause distress by being in that space. Then they should be able to access alternative provisions.

This seems fair and proportionate.

The ruling indicates that when a provision is designated a single sex provision, it should only be accessed by people whose biological sex matches the designation.

It does not follow that males with trans identities must use single sex provision for men. It is unlikely that it would be legally compliant to provide only single sex provision as this would discriminate against people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

I genuinely don’t care. I’m happy for trans women to use women spaces. But I do understand why some people might not want that.

I was just curious what people thought regarding trans men as I’ve not seen it mentioned

“Is this what the majority want? Surely if people are worried about ‘predatory men’ pretending to be a trans woman to use single sex spaces then they could equally claim to be a trans man as you can’t really ask them to prove it can you?”

This seems to be recycled weaponising of trans men from other parts of the internet.

Female transgender people have spent years discussing this with us here that they already understand that their presence in the female single sex space may cause distress. So they make great effort to plan their outings to find suitable alternatives for their needs. They do this using a variety of methods, including specific web sites for that purpose.

All of a sudden though, those female people have been weaponised as some kind of sick gotcha by a group of male people who hate being told ‘no’. And other people have amplified those male voices above female voices. As has been the pattern forever.

Rolling out the trans men again I see, to make a TW point.

Just digging out my bingo card...

Gosh they're really working hard on reddit to fill up our bingo cards today

transmen are women and despite the "aha!! Would you want to share your space with this?? Brandishes photo of muscular bearded man eh? Ehhhh?" attempted gotcha 1. Trans men are women so why would I be worried about them? 2 in reality as opposed to posed filtered photos most TM are short with small hands and feet and curved obviously female hips 3. If a TM is desperate to piss in men's toilets that's for men to sort out

I don't think transwomen want to share a bathroom with men either

I suggest they campaign for their own toilets then, and figure a way to keep the other men out.

I don't give a fuck if they're trying to peer at my cunt or not

TW are men, they can go in the men's loos or unisex loos, they are not women and don't belong in women's spaces

Reciting a mantra doesn't make it come true!
You are delusional if you think you can change your sex

Women dont want men in their spaces for privacy and safety reasons

No one has changed sex. Toilet and changing room provision has always been segregated by sex for safeguarding and privacy and dignity.

People can have whatever identities they want, but it doesn’t change their sex and it doesn’t change which space they are meant to use. If they choose not to use that space, it never meant they should use the opposite sex space. If they choose to not use the space for their sex, they need to find an alternative solution.

If ‘just living their lives’ means negatively impacting other people because of their own decisions, that is not ‘just living their lives’ at all. That is them making undue demands on others to support them.

If a male person doesn’t want to use a male space, they need to address that without accessing female single sex provisions.

HTH

This is only spoken about in terms of trans women now having to use men’s toilets, etc.

Um, no it isn't.

A male person without a penis and testicles is still a male person.

A cavity surgically inserted in a male groin is just a cavity surgically inserted in a male groin.

Female people are highly likely to correctly identify a male person’s correct sex by observation and interaction. Tall women are not tall male people. Tall women do not have male body cues such as hips, gait, skeletal proportions and facial cues.

If you cannot correctly identify a person’s sex, please don’t assume that your experience is the universal experience. It is not.

No, because all trans people are not biologically male.

I have several ‘trans people’ in my life. Your posts simply keep getting things wrong.

thank you for the opportunity to share facts

1. the vast majority of TW (over 90%) do not cut off of the penis and have it inverted into a hole that has to be regularly dilated to stop it closing (I refuse to use the euphemism 'bottom surgery"
2. the vast majority of TW do not pass beyond the world of filtered photos
3. i assume you think trans ppl are incapable of obeying the law and will deliberately go into the toilets they're not supposed to
4. being 'misgendered' is actually not literal violence or the worst thing that can happen to someone despite the transperbole

if TW want to deliberately ignore the law I'll assume the same about them as I do other ppl who deliberately flout the law

FFS, they don't get a vagina through "bottom surgery".

My brother claims he is a woman and has had his penis surgically inverted into a man made crevice. He does not have a vagina. This is 15 years ago, he is still readily recognisable as a man.

Please do not use the word 'cis'.

You sound somewhat naive.