NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #49

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025

What will the ruling be if DU "loses" will he have to pay damages?

Yes, I don't see how DU could appeal alone because then you would have to split up NHSF and DU's liabilities and surely that is impossible.

I have to ask.

“Reduce the chances of backing a complete wallaby”

What is a wallaby in this instance? I mean they are lovely little animals, but this is a new context for me.

Segregation has not become a loaded word when it comes to correctly using it for the purposes of sex. As keating has done. For instance sport is segregated by categories of age and sex. Single sex provisions are segregated by sex.

Maybe a comparison is discrimination. Discrimination is a word that some people get focused on as being only negative. But as a word it is neutral and positive applications as well as negative. A example is when reading the EA2010 there is legitimate discrimination allowed where there is a justified purpose. The word ‘discrimination’ itself is neutral and I don’t believe carries judgement in, and of, itself.

You’re tagging the wrong person here. I posted in support of @TheKeatingFive .

Catching up with the thread but Im not so sure.

The judge took a very keen interest when DU started wanging on about "hormonal sex, chromosomal sex, psychological sex blah blah blah" It was a pong list. I watched that part live and he was scribbling furiously.

I didn't manage to get log ins for the delayed part ofnthe tribunal, but from following this thread the same thing happened when MC (I think) gave evidence.

I am inclined to think JR will argue via flapdoodle, that therefore DU is not male and male biological sex doesn't apply to him (because hormones or psychology or something), and biological sex wasnt defined int the FWS judgement (a lot.of TRAs are already saying this)

I am also inclined to think the Judge will wrongly agree to this. I get a sinking feeling - there was something about his manner.

I do not know why SPs team did not put up an expert witness to show how biological sex actually works because it is extremely relevant.

Complete idiot.
The sort of person who is out to look for trouble, and will create trouble where none exists. Racist, bigot, or just a trouble maker.

Ok they found she'd shared one batch of disaster jokes, but that it. I doubt anyone's social media is 100% squeaky clean.

Perhaps Robert Winston could be an intervenor about sex?

IANAL so probably haven’t understood the process!
Maybe a vet, who knows what a dog is?

He definitely could appeal alone. They are separate respondents. Also the things he is being accused of are potentially career ending if his regulator becomes involved.

I don't think they needed to pay an expert witness to explain male / female. Everyone knows.

NC managed to get Doctor's people who have probably got a biology certificates sit there looking daft saying they don't know what sex they are?

But nobody was happy for Pete the Plumber to be in the changing rroom.They all knew Petes not a woman

@borntobequiet oh no, so sorry about that!

I think it's @totallygripped who has (deliberately?) gripped the wrong end of the separation/segregation stick.

😁 Do you mean wally?

Here I was thinking poor little wallabies had acquired a new role. I even thought about looking up urban dictionary. 😁

(No offence to any people named Wally! Of course. )

To the NZ poster who influenced the athletics outcome, great work! To FWS, great work also. To the ploppers, may the splashback always leave your bum wet.

I don't care that Sandie has said racist things (in this context only), because it all helps to support the narrative that single sex spaces are for all women, even the ones we don't agree with. The fact that this narrative has emerged in this first huge high-profile case might mean we don't have to reiterate the point in case after case.

Does anyone know if nhs fife have policies in place now re trans inclusion and still say they can use facilities of their choice male or female? Have they done any Equality Impact Assessments?

Could he be reported for voyeurism or sexual harassment or stalking especially with his notes on his phone saying when Sandie waited outside the changing room.

Don't be daft of course not.
They basically copied the same policies other NHS areas were using via Google

NHS Fife ‘undermined Supreme Court ruling’ in Sandie Peggie tribunal

https://www.thetimes.com/article/ae760f16-68b7-4fe7-b2b6-f61ed460d4f1?shareToken=870c3cd2379fd2a698573dd0dbea0943

Thanks to everyone for the continued updates. Not to derail but if anyone else regularly plays the Blossom word game (https://www.merriam-webster.com/games/blossom-word-game) you may be able to relate. Geniuinely, my first thought when I went on today was 'Oh, I can spell nauticant'. 😂 This tribunal will have long lasting impact for us all!

@Gabcsika NC did a superb job with MC a consultant doctor to explain sex reality. NC went step by step so there could be no doubt by the Judge or panel that it’s not possible to change sex.

Thanks for pushing back on this. I noticed they used “sex characteristics “ rather than just “sex” which is a tad annoying.

I may be wrong but it seems as if Australia and NZ are much further down the TRA road than even we are. I don’t know if national guilt about the way indigenous people were treated plays into force teaming us straight out if the TRA playbook.

I do not know why SPs team did not put up an expert witness to show how biological sex actually works because it is extremely relevant.

Unnecessary. There is already settled case law setting out the legal definition of 'biological sex'. The relevant cases were referenced in the SC judgement, IIRC - it's Corbett v Corbett and another one that I can't currently remember but it's a name beginning with B (that one was mentioned in one of Michael Foran's explainers for this case, and deals with intersex conditions as well as the standard situation).

[Edited because I really shouldn't try typing before I've got my contact lenses in.]

I assumed 'complete wallaby' was the antipodean version of 'complete turkey' or 'dud'.

It's not necessary, because as much as TRAs try to wang on that sex is oh so complicated, the law in this country is based on what an ordinary person would understand words to mean. Which is sensible, because we all need to understand the law in order to be able to obey it. The ordinary person understands very well what the words 'biological sex' mean.

Bellinger?