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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #49

1000 replies

nauticant · 31/07/2025 13:22

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025

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prh47bridge · 31/07/2025 23:14

SternJoyousBeev2 · 31/07/2025 22:09

Would the fact that they made no attempt to balance the rights of Sandie and Upton go against them even if the panel accepted JRs probable argument about the lack of clarity of the law? They made no attempt to find an amicable compromise/solution and just decided that Upton had the right to use the CR.

I don't think it will come to that, but the complete failure to follow any recognisable process will definitely go against them.

AnnaBalfour · 31/07/2025 23:16

A previous poster touched on the possibility of the Good Law project helping DU appeal if SP wins.

Even if he falsified screenshots used as evidence?

SqueakyDinosaur · 31/07/2025 23:20

One thing I've been musing over. I wonder if JR is the only private practice lawyer on the NHSF side? I know quite a lot of barristers and solicitors in private/commercial practice, and also lawyers in the Government Legal Service (and have worked with quite a few in my cuntsulting days). In my experience, private practitioners price in extremely long hours, and public sector lawyers on the whole don't. Fair enough, that's the financial deal.

I think we can be fairly sure that NC, CE and MG have together burned a good deal of midnight oil, probably along with more junior lawyers in MG's firm. In my experience, public sector lawyers just won't do that, and so JR may have been the only person on the NHSF side pulling the all-nighters. It might explain, for instance, why she didn't appear to be aware of any of the rest of the content of the 7-year WA chat - she simply didn't have time, and nobody else was going to stay up till 4am summarising it for her.

BeLemonNow · 31/07/2025 23:22

crumpet · 31/07/2025 22:55

😄 I am most definitely not a pikelet!

Are you an Aldi Sourdough Crumpet?

prh47bridge · 31/07/2025 23:24

AnnaBalfour · 31/07/2025 23:16

A previous poster touched on the possibility of the Good Law project helping DU appeal if SP wins.

Even if he falsified screenshots used as evidence?

He won't be able to appeal on findings of fact by the tribunal unless they are unsupported by any evidence. He can appeal on points of law or if he can come up with evidence that the tribunal was biased against him, notwithstanding the likely falsified screenshots.

Needspaceforlego · 31/07/2025 23:33

@SqueakyDinosaur I was thinking that too that JR was possibly out matched by Sandies team. And JRs frustration probably lead to the very unprofessional 'how can you afford this' comment.

But having a complete team and juniors, and probably not so juniors in the background that must also reflect in the overall costs to Sandie (and backer)

AnnaBalfour · 31/07/2025 23:44

Thank you @prh47bridge

MyAmpleSheep · 31/07/2025 23:45

SqueakyDinosaur · 31/07/2025 23:20

One thing I've been musing over. I wonder if JR is the only private practice lawyer on the NHSF side? I know quite a lot of barristers and solicitors in private/commercial practice, and also lawyers in the Government Legal Service (and have worked with quite a few in my cuntsulting days). In my experience, private practitioners price in extremely long hours, and public sector lawyers on the whole don't. Fair enough, that's the financial deal.

I think we can be fairly sure that NC, CE and MG have together burned a good deal of midnight oil, probably along with more junior lawyers in MG's firm. In my experience, public sector lawyers just won't do that, and so JR may have been the only person on the NHSF side pulling the all-nighters. It might explain, for instance, why she didn't appear to be aware of any of the rest of the content of the 7-year WA chat - she simply didn't have time, and nobody else was going to stay up till 4am summarising it for her.

You mean that for NHS Legal services this is just a day job, but everyone on SP’s team is invested. That’s a good point.

AnnaBalfour · 31/07/2025 23:49

@Needspaceforlego

Yes, JR’s frustration was clear by asking that question and revealed her classism and how unprofessional she is.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #49
AnnaBalfour · 31/07/2025 23:50

The image I attached of JK Rowling highlighting that is under review.

Needspaceforlego · 31/07/2025 23:58

@AnnaBalfour yes that's exactly what I meant JR is probably not used to being completely out matched with the resources available to her.

What a cheeky question to ask, she was probably hoping Sandie would spill the beans.

Appalonia · 31/07/2025 23:58

Apologies in advance for my frivolity, but on on one of the previous threads, I created a song for the Pete the Plumber poem that @BoiledBeetle created, and I created another song tonight ( using AI ) tonight about women's rights. ( I didn't write the lyrics ). And I think it's really good!😂

suno.com/s/dfpg7BrJYowytcBi

AnnaBalfour · 01/08/2025 00:03

@Appalonia

Incredible!!

Just danced around the bedroom to it 😁

Marching on the groove like Tesco queens 💃

NebulousPhoneNotes · 01/08/2025 00:21

SqueakyDinosaur · 31/07/2025 23:20

One thing I've been musing over. I wonder if JR is the only private practice lawyer on the NHSF side? I know quite a lot of barristers and solicitors in private/commercial practice, and also lawyers in the Government Legal Service (and have worked with quite a few in my cuntsulting days). In my experience, private practitioners price in extremely long hours, and public sector lawyers on the whole don't. Fair enough, that's the financial deal.

I think we can be fairly sure that NC, CE and MG have together burned a good deal of midnight oil, probably along with more junior lawyers in MG's firm. In my experience, public sector lawyers just won't do that, and so JR may have been the only person on the NHSF side pulling the all-nighters. It might explain, for instance, why she didn't appear to be aware of any of the rest of the content of the 7-year WA chat - she simply didn't have time, and nobody else was going to stay up till 4am summarising it for her.

An interesting point. The likelihood of JR having less manpower support from her solicitor's office than NC did is quite high, simply because of the number of people that could be paid for and assigned to it, even before you factor in how many hours they worked. MG's firm could for example have taken on paralegals on a temporary basis just to assist with this case, in a way the CLO may not have been able to for cost reasons.

In terms of the 7 year WA chat though, SP's lawyers (and it will most likely have indeed been junior lawyers in MG's firm in the first instance) were motivated to look through in order to defend and mitigate against the messages the other side had. In contrast, NHS Fife were handed the messages on a plate, and LN was not going to willingly hand over others that implicated herself, if indeed she even remembered them.

But SP's side needed to be able to show if they could that (a) that was the only message(s) in the 7 year chat showing potentially discriminatory content by SP and that (b) LN's credibility was compromised by her own lack of professionalism re breaking patient confidentiality. So searching through the entire backlog to see what they could find to mitigate was important, as they were on the back foot.

It's possible that SP told them there weren't any more potentially problematic messages from her and about the message from LN, so the legal team then checked so that they could say that with confidence.

Needspaceforlego · 01/08/2025 00:31

I could be totally up the wrong tree. But it has crossed my mind that all of Sandies social media stuff might have been reviewed BEFORE her backer put too much money into it. Reduce the chances of backing a complete wallaby.

If Fifes bill was sitting at about £250k before the second part of the ET, Sandies must have been similar.
Sandie had a team of solicitors plus the 'typists' (sorry I've forgotten the proper title, and zero chances I could spell it) for the second half so probably the same a similar sum for July's bill her total bill to date can't be much short of £500k

TheAutumnCrow · 01/08/2025 00:33

Needspaceforlego · 01/08/2025 00:31

I could be totally up the wrong tree. But it has crossed my mind that all of Sandies social media stuff might have been reviewed BEFORE her backer put too much money into it. Reduce the chances of backing a complete wallaby.

If Fifes bill was sitting at about £250k before the second part of the ET, Sandies must have been similar.
Sandie had a team of solicitors plus the 'typists' (sorry I've forgotten the proper title, and zero chances I could spell it) for the second half so probably the same a similar sum for July's bill her total bill to date can't be much short of £500k

Edited

The court stenographers?

Needspaceforlego · 01/08/2025 00:35

YES them, I knew it was a big fancy word and someone would know who I meant 😄

Jitrenka · 01/08/2025 00:37

had a couple of days focusing on other things since if i focus on the trans all the time i get very annoyed that we even have to deal with this stuff and plus i thought these threads were winding down, anyway just went on X and saw the FWS news and came on here to see if you ladies (i know some of you said that you dont like that but i dont know another word!) knew and of course you are on it!! 😁
i think it will make SP win more emphatic and NHSF less likely to appeal it will also make it harder for him to try any other legal nonsense given that the law does state that he was never classed as a woman and rightly so!!

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 01/08/2025 00:38

AnnaBalfour · 31/07/2025 23:16

A previous poster touched on the possibility of the Good Law project helping DU appeal if SP wins.

Even if he falsified screenshots used as evidence?

I wouldn't worry too much about the good law project.

They have a very loose understanding of the law which is shocking considering they're made up of lawyers.

AnnaBalfour · 01/08/2025 00:50

@Jimmyneutronsforehead phew, thank you

@Jitrenka yes so good to see this strong intervention from FWS, a rebuke to JR and a warning to her about her attempts to mislead in her closing submissions

2021x · 01/08/2025 01:02

I would just like to announce a personal victory in NZ.

2 weeks ago it was announced that the NZ Sport were no longer going to automatically include trans athletes in the categories that they identified with. It sounded like they were going to review the evidence first to see what was possible.

The Human Rights Commision (a govt. funded organisation) put out a statement talking about how awful it was for trans people to not be included in the category of their choice.

The article made no mention about the risk that including males in female sport effectively discriminate females from participating based on their sex. I made a complaint pointing that out.

I got an email this morning. Acknowledging the complaint(s) and they have now added discrimination including sex.

Its such a small victory but I feel that its important one to acknolwedget that sex-based rights are JUST as important as trans-rights.

It's still a weasily statement, with all the what-about-isms and heavily leans on racist sterotypes of non-european cultures as extra sauce but its still a change

https://tikatangata.org.nz/news/human-rights-commission-condemns-move-to-withdraw-guidelines-for-transgender-people-in-community-sportnew-resource-page

SqueakyDinosaur · 01/08/2025 01:18

2021x · 01/08/2025 01:02

I would just like to announce a personal victory in NZ.

2 weeks ago it was announced that the NZ Sport were no longer going to automatically include trans athletes in the categories that they identified with. It sounded like they were going to review the evidence first to see what was possible.

The Human Rights Commision (a govt. funded organisation) put out a statement talking about how awful it was for trans people to not be included in the category of their choice.

The article made no mention about the risk that including males in female sport effectively discriminate females from participating based on their sex. I made a complaint pointing that out.

I got an email this morning. Acknowledging the complaint(s) and they have now added discrimination including sex.

Its such a small victory but I feel that its important one to acknolwedget that sex-based rights are JUST as important as trans-rights.

It's still a weasily statement, with all the what-about-isms and heavily leans on racist sterotypes of non-european cultures as extra sauce but its still a change

https://tikatangata.org.nz/news/human-rights-commission-condemns-move-to-withdraw-guidelines-for-transgender-people-in-community-sportnew-resource-page

Edited

Brilliant. The longest journey starts with a single step. TERF Island is with you!

DrPrunesqualer · 01/08/2025 01:18

SternlyMatthews · 31/07/2025 22:14

They have made made a written submission which will be considered by the panel as it deliberates, but they will not be represented or make oral arguments.

It is just over a page long, & understandable:
https://forwomen.scot/31/07/2025/employment-tribunal-intervention-peggie/

edit s/orl/oral/

Edited

Thanks for posting
FWS leaving no stone unturned just in case JR tries it on
👏👏

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 01/08/2025 01:54

Has any context been published for SP's 'jokes'? Obviously the comments themselves are terrible but is seems odd to paste in such vile stuff one-sidedly

  • what do people fancy for lunch?
  • I'm thinking sandwiches
  • Costa?
  • maybe
  • here are some racist jokes I found online
2021x · 01/08/2025 01:57

SqueakyDinosaur · 01/08/2025 01:18

Brilliant. The longest journey starts with a single step. TERF Island is with you!

Thanks... it is very distressing, because it feels like it is being made into a conflict, making me chose a side, when I genuinely have compassion for people who (for what ever reason) feel so shit about themselves they feel like they have to remove their functioing organs.

I am suspicious that the Human Rights Commission is run by Dr. Stephen Rainbow though ha ha

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