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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #49

1000 replies

nauticant · 31/07/2025 13:22

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025

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32
PachacutisBadAuntie · 31/07/2025 21:58

Totallygripped · 31/07/2025 21:39

Crumpet.segregation may be one of those words which has moved from neutral to loaded. We could discuss ad nauseum. .ls DU male or Female?

Have you tried AIBU?
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable

AIBU? | Am I being unreasonable? | Mumsnet

Am I being unreasonable? Put your questions to Mumsnet's famous AIBU forum and see if you are being unreasonable or not.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable

MyAmpleSheep · 31/07/2025 22:00

Binglebong · 31/07/2025 21:36

I know the wording is wrong but...

Since there are multiple charges could we have a situation where each side wins some and we have appeals from both?

Yes. A cross-appeal by both parties.

Harassedevictee · 31/07/2025 22:01

Binglebong · 31/07/2025 21:14

What is the relevance of blue?

They are all wearing similar shades of blue clothes in photos. It’s like a brand.

SternlyMatthews · 31/07/2025 22:05

FeedbackProvider · 31/07/2025 16:22

It was “contentious” or “in dispute” only in the sense that the judge knew that JR was contending and disputing it. His comments could have been clearer given the large numbers of people watching the proceedings.

He allowed that JR gave notice she would raise a legal point (try to), & by pushing it straight to subs he avoiding losing more time, already short. She'd have made a meal of it otherwise.

lcakethereforeIam · 31/07/2025 22:06

I just want to know how crumpets got dragged into this? Are they bad now? How about pikelets? Are they okay?

prh47bridge · 31/07/2025 22:08

FigRollsAlly · 31/07/2025 21:43

Reading the Hansard extract that was posted (I think by RedToothbrush) on a previous thread, where JR’s husband talked about a daughter who needed residential care for mental health problems and linking that to the suggestion that they have a trans identified daughter, I feel a bit sad for JR. I know she has behaved terribly but if her child is anything like the kids of people I know who walk on eggshells around their trans teens, in fear of losing the child either through being cut off or suicide, she will be under severe pressure to be the perfect trans champion. She didn’t have to take this case, though, and my sympathy is pretty limited by her antics.

She did have to take this case. If a client wants to use a barrister in an area where they claim expertise and is willing to pay their standard rate, the barrister must take the job if they are available. That is the cab rank rule in operation. JR doesn't get to choose her clients. Her clients choose her.

SternJoyousBeev2 · 31/07/2025 22:09

prh47bridge · 31/07/2025 16:38

I would be surprised if she tries that argument. All the SC judgement did is clarify what the law has always been. It did not change the law. She may be able to argue some mitigation on the basis that so many organisations, including EHRC, were getting the law wrong, but that is all.

Would the fact that they made no attempt to balance the rights of Sandie and Upton go against them even if the panel accepted JRs probable argument about the lack of clarity of the law? They made no attempt to find an amicable compromise/solution and just decided that Upton had the right to use the CR.

Totallygripped · 31/07/2025 22:13

ContemporaneouslyNebulousNotes · 31/07/2025 21:55

No it hasn't. It is still a neutral term and was used in this context completely correctly. You are now officially being silly and I won't be replying to you any more.

Dr Upton is male.

Edited

Err. Where did I reply to you so you won't be replying to me? And I agree that DU is male. Officially silly? How so? My first and last 3 weeks on MN. Nauticant and all the balanced people on here. How do you do It?

SternlyMatthews · 31/07/2025 22:14

CucumberCool · 31/07/2025 16:55

Please can someone explain what it FWS intervening means? I have zero legal knowledge...

They have made made a written submission which will be considered by the panel as it deliberates, but they will not be represented or make oral arguments.

It is just over a page long, & understandable:
https://forwomen.scot/31/07/2025/employment-tribunal-intervention-peggie/

edit s/orl/oral/

Employment tribunal intervention - Peggie - For Women Scotland

We asked for permission to intervene in the employment tribunal of Sandie Peggie v NHS Fife and Dr Beth Upton. The Tribunal has now confirmed that neither the claimant nor the respondent has any objection and "it is in accordance with Rule 36 to allow...

https://forwomen.scot/31/07/2025/employment-tribunal-intervention-peggie/

ifIwerenotanandroid · 31/07/2025 22:14

Totallygripped · 31/07/2025 21:39

Crumpet.segregation may be one of those words which has moved from neutral to loaded. We could discuss ad nauseum. .ls DU male or Female?

No, it hasn't in the UK. Are you by any chance in South Africa (from your previous posts)? Are you unaware that this is a British-based site where a Scottish employment tribunal is being discussed by mostly British people? We aren't South African & the nuances of the word 'segregation' don't exist for us. It's just a normal word which carries no other meanings or associations. If you're looking for the 'real reason' someone here says segregation, you're looking for a phantasm.

But welcome to the site & the discussion.

thoughtsonlondon · 31/07/2025 22:17

SternJoyousBeev2 · 31/07/2025 22:09

Would the fact that they made no attempt to balance the rights of Sandie and Upton go against them even if the panel accepted JRs probable argument about the lack of clarity of the law? They made no attempt to find an amicable compromise/solution and just decided that Upton had the right to use the CR.

I'm interested in this too, particularly as it seems as though there wasn't an acceptable way for SP to explain her position.

Some of JR's arguments just seem to add weight to the discrimination on grounds of belief claim.

MyAmpleSheep · 31/07/2025 22:25

I don’t see that an alleged lack of clarity in the law is even raisable. The statute book is full of difficult to interpret laws where in almost every hearing one side and sometimes both sides get their incorrect interpretation told to them by the bench. It’s up to each party to know what the law is, and that’s that.

RedToothBrush · 31/07/2025 22:30

FigRollsAlly · 31/07/2025 21:43

Reading the Hansard extract that was posted (I think by RedToothbrush) on a previous thread, where JR’s husband talked about a daughter who needed residential care for mental health problems and linking that to the suggestion that they have a trans identified daughter, I feel a bit sad for JR. I know she has behaved terribly but if her child is anything like the kids of people I know who walk on eggshells around their trans teens, in fear of losing the child either through being cut off or suicide, she will be under severe pressure to be the perfect trans champion. She didn’t have to take this case, though, and my sympathy is pretty limited by her antics.

I don't feel sorry for any parent who affirms. I do not know, nor particularly care to know if JR is one of these parents. I do know know if the gossip is correct and I don't want to indulge gossip.

However I will say this more generally about parents.

There are many many parents, including many here, who have decided of their own free will NOT to take an affirmation only approach for various reasons.

Some have been alienated. Others have kept in touch but have a strained relationship. Some have a good relationship but have moved to a more nuanced position where sex is still recognised. Others still have children who have subsequently detransitioned, and their role in not affirming has been crucial.

MN highlights the wide range of options and approaches and outcomes that can and do happen.

What HASN'T happened, to my knowledge, is a MN's child has killed themselves because they haven't been affirmed despite all the threats and rhetoric that if you don't affirm fully without question your child will top themselves.

Parents DO have choices here. Very difficult ones at times, but they are not required to affirm at all costs. So I do not feel sorry for any parent who makes an active choice to affirm. And it is an active choice.

I also will make an additional point. Many families are toxic and many are NC for all manner of reasons. It can be nothing to do with trans at all. Sometimes a troubled child will just disassociate with the best of parents anyway. These trans identifying kids and young adults ARE amongst the most troubled there are. We know this. We have evidence of this.

It's likely that if it wasn't trans, many would have strained relationships with their families anyway. These are kids who have a high chance they have fallen down another rabbit hole - be it another cult, social group or toxic relationship. These are kids unsure of themselves and actively looking for an identity or sense of belong precisely because they lack that self of security and belonging. There are multiple reasons this could happen - family breakdown, trauma, abuse etc etc. You know all the things over represented in the trans community anyway.

We also know this problem with social interactions and relationships is particularly typical of neuro diverse people across the board and we know how highly over represented this group is.

So no, parents are not total hostages to this. They can do different things. It is dishonest to suggest there's no choices available for parents. Parents do not have to tolerate coercive and manipulative blackmail if they are on the recieving end of it. Sometimes being tough as a parent is appropriate and the best approach. Let's not suggest otherwise.

Ariana12 · 31/07/2025 22:36

Im just here to say a huge thank you to the good citizens posting about this. Thank goodness Sandy is surrounded by friends and family and has such good lawyers!

SternlyMatthews · 31/07/2025 22:40

mrshoho · 31/07/2025 17:48

Thanks for the quality info all.

I wondered as well about past tribunals involving the NHS. There was one in England where a TIM took his employer the NHS to a tribunal and won. I can't remember the name or the trust but it was around the Trust treating him differently to the female employees. It was ridiculous as he was changing in the female changing room and staff complained as he was naked exposing his genitals. The manager asked him if wore underwear under his uniform and he complained he was treated differently or some shit. Would the fact that the NHS lost this tribunal affect how their legal teams advised subsequently?

I think this is the one. ET, so does not set precedent.

The only ground found (others were withdrawn) :

  1. 5. The Claimant’s complaint of direct gender reassignment discrimination against the First Respondent in respect of questioning about underwear at a meeting on 25 June 2021 is well-founded and succeeds.

V v Sheffield Teaching Hospitals
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62cff0578fa8f50bfafb091d/V_v_Sheffield_Teaching_Hospitals_NHS_Foundation_Trust_1806836-2020___Others.pdf

Plus Anya Palmer discusses on X
https://x.com/anyabike/status/1887445689640063026

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62cff0578fa8f50bfafb091d/V_v_Sheffield_Teaching_Hospitals_NHS_Foundation_Trust_1806836-2020___Others.pdf

Namechangedagain999 · 31/07/2025 22:42

ifIwerenotanandroid · 31/07/2025 22:14

No, it hasn't in the UK. Are you by any chance in South Africa (from your previous posts)? Are you unaware that this is a British-based site where a Scottish employment tribunal is being discussed by mostly British people? We aren't South African & the nuances of the word 'segregation' don't exist for us. It's just a normal word which carries no other meanings or associations. If you're looking for the 'real reason' someone here says segregation, you're looking for a phantasm.

But welcome to the site & the discussion.

Or possibly American?

NoBinturongsHereMate · 31/07/2025 22:43

Totallygripped · 31/07/2025 19:28

I wasn't implying anything. I was completely open in asking you to justify the verb you used. A verb which in my lifetime has particularly applied to the apartheid SA regime and in recent living memory for others a loaded term. That none of my family nor me have been remotely affected changes nothing about calling you out on the language you seemingly carefully use and then have a strop about.

Separation - process, usually relating to individuals, items or things.

Segregation - policy¹, usually involving separation specifically of groups. So perfectly appropriate for policy about separating - and making different provision for -groups of men and women.

¹ Except when relating to particular technical usage such as in meiosis.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 31/07/2025 22:46

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 31/07/2025 19:02

Are there any legs to the thought that knowledge of messages from the holiday chat group may have precipitated the sudden suspension of SP?

Perhaps sources close to HR already knew that Sandie had racist views / was an all round bad egg and so quickly moved to suspension because she was an undesirable
Maybe they could not use the holiday chat as part of the suspension justification as it also implicated 'good people'
They were then left scrabbling around searching for other evidence of e.g. patient mistreatment.

Do we know if the holiday chat / racist views formed part of the internal investigation that cleared SP?

None.

The suspension was almost instant, and pre-dated any attempt at investigation by months. It's vanishingly unlikely that management knew anything about even the existence of a private chat group (on a non-work platform) for a small group of friends, never mind the content.

crumpet · 31/07/2025 22:53

Totallygripped · 31/07/2025 21:39

Crumpet.segregation may be one of those words which has moved from neutral to loaded. We could discuss ad nauseum. .ls DU male or Female?

It could be but it’s not. It is used in common parlance in both professional and non professional spheres.

Totallygripped · 31/07/2025 22:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

crumpet · 31/07/2025 22:55

lcakethereforeIam · 31/07/2025 22:06

I just want to know how crumpets got dragged into this? Are they bad now? How about pikelets? Are they okay?

😄 I am most definitely not a pikelet!

KeepTalkingBeth · 31/07/2025 22:56

I think if Fife had those messages during their "investigation(s)" they would have pounced on them and used them as the justification to sack Sandie. The likes of Searle and Upton would have relished such a find.

Needspaceforlego · 31/07/2025 22:57

Given Fife had spent about £250k up until about the end of June, what do we think their current bill will be adding up to?

Sandies is probably similar if not more, given she had NC and CE.

Thank goodness she has an absolutely wonderful backer.
Is the tribunal likely to cover her costs since Fife dragged it out by omitting things and submitting stuff at the last minute?

lcakethereforeIam · 31/07/2025 22:58

crumpet · 31/07/2025 22:55

😄 I am most definitely not a pikelet!

Not even on the, putting it kindly, the thicker end of the pikelet spectrum? 😊

AnnaBalfour · 31/07/2025 23:12

@borntobequiet you asked a question (innocently I presumed, now not so sure) and @TheKeatingFive kindly explained, you then took her to task over a word she used implying some kind of bad motive for it. It’s boring now.

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