NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #49

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025

esp after a series of TiMs were dismissed from City firms for harassing female staff. (NDAs were signed, but everyone knows)"

Whoaa! That’s a bit of dynamite.

I believe the doctors' changing room was closer (20 paces IIRC) to Dr Upton. He went out of his way to use the nurses' changing room which is a bit further away.

No. It wasn't relevant to her claim. It only got introduced because Fife wanted to tar her as racist and LN was willing to help them do so by giving them some of the messages.

Gross.

SP did say the room was used by doctors, nurses and support staff though, IIRC.

I was just thinking though about how there's really no reason for DU not to use the men's. It's not like a public loo (not that anything's likely to happen to him there either). But really, what are a bunch of male doctors going to do? He'd be "safer" there among his peers than pissing people off in the women's.

I may be wrong, but I think the doctors' changing room is a myth that has sprung up on social media. Female doctors used the same changing room as nurses, although senior doctors got changed elsewhere. My understanding is that there is a room where doctors on long shifts can rest, but this is not a changing room.

Nothing concrete on that though either yet.

It'll come out.

If the government do pass the NDA law, then pre-existing NDAs are going to become much harder to uphold and enforce.

Patience, but I think there's a fairly good chance it'll all come out.

If companies are avoiding hiring TIMs that actually illegal and that raises other questions in the long run too.

and

SP did say the room was used by doctors, nurses and support staff though, IIRC.

Ah, my apologies. I haven't read the full threads it's a sair fecht when you get all your news from twitter

Oh. I think I’ve got confused. I was thinking the discussion about what Upton got up to at the other hospital was something that SP’s side would have had to disclose and that it was from the WA group, but now think it was separate - Facebook messages, not WA.

This is where the “no debate” will come to bite. TIMS now have the reputation of being awkward and that toxic team member that might blow a hole in your company for no good reason. Just see what DU’s done to NHSF when there were already other trans staff quietly getting along. It’s a massive commercial and reputational risk at the moment while FWS and the EHRC guidance isn’t resolved. I’d hope that once the rules are clear the risk will reduce and the discrimination will reduce… but that assumes the TRAs calm down and start to play nice/look like safer employees

I don't want them to "play" nice; they play all sorts of things, in fact role-play seems to be their way of life. I want them to stfu and GROW UP A BIT and stop behaving like spoiled ten-year-olds shouting me-me-me-me-me and bullying anyone who seems smaller than they are and might be unable to defend herself.

There was mention of it in the WhatsApp group when SP said she had heard that there had been incidents and asked if anyone knew anything. There was no requirement to disclose this conversation. Even if it had produced more information, SP would not have been required to disclose how she found out about these incidents.

The thread mentioned above about the city firms, is interesting if you follow it back.

If the following screenshots are accurate given the the story this week about M&S I wouldn't be at all surprised to see similar in the Sunday Papers this weekend.

If that's the case, there may well be more inconvenient questions in the near future about how HR departments have been handling issues relating to harassment and trans identity.

Its concerning and gives the impression that what is public is currently the tip of an iceberg no one wants to acknowledge.

Obviously we don't know if this is true, but there's more and more noise that suggests there is a problem that is being swept under the carpet.

I'm sure I remember DU expressing that he didn't feel safe in the men's because I remember thinking well if he doesn't feel safe amongst a load of male health professionals they need to do an audit of their dept.
Of course he really meant he might feel a bit upset about not having the validation. Nothing to do with actual physical safety and if anyone in the men's had put a foot wrong would they have got the same treatment Sandie did?

Don’t forget there are two trans-identifying men taking their employer to court for allowing SEEN to exist (Civil Service)

Isn't that a bit of a tell that they want to be regarded as superior?

Is there going to be another? Is someone collecting them? There's some absolute belters on this thread.

Agree

It was a massive hint 👋👋👋
If I was any good at poetry I’d love to be in print in a MNet book.

I need to get some 'Trans Women Welcome' stickers printed up for a gents stickering campaign - men should shoulder the responsibility for this

I had not even thought that M+S might compel their female staff to get into changing rooms to measure semi-naked men - that's ghastly.

I'm guessing if you make a fuss and refuse then you get the transphobic bigot label

Continuation thread for when this one is full:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5387893-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-50

Make sure you add “We PROTECT THE DOLLS in this loo” to it for good measure.

I’m off to google Pippa Bunce, see what he’s been up to recently.

Great idea

I'm seeing a circular sticker, in the center 3 stacked bold words 'Trans Women Welcome', snaking around the periphery 'We PROTECT THE DOLLS in this loo'

Maybe trans flag colours behind the central words to catch the eye

Maybe we need some adverts with men helping men in dresses spot the male loos. If they go towards the female ones they could be guided back with the "maaate" London slogan (men think about your behaviour campaign).