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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #49

1000 replies

nauticant · 31/07/2025 13:22

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025

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32
RedToothBrush · 06/08/2025 11:53

CinnamonCinnabar · 06/08/2025 10:32

I just to repeat this gem from NHS Fife:

A spokeswoman for NHS Fife previously said: “Throughout the course of the employment tribunal, NHS Fife has been clear that it will not comment on individuals or evidence while legal proceedings are ongoing.

So was that Friday afternoon binfire of a press release just imaginary then???!

Yep.

That's hilarious.

So who DID put out the statement that Friday if it wasn't the Spokeswoman for Fife. Surely that's her job.

Or is this another example of one department not knowing its arse from it's elbow and other departments acting unilaterally with no clear chain of command?

Hmm.

NotNatacha · 06/08/2025 11:57

Surely expert witnesses are usually paid? It's not an unusual thing. JB was hired for his expertise in the job at hand. Very unfair to impugn his integrity and professionalism.

The husband of a former colleague, when asked what his job is, says he's an expert witness. That's the only description he gives. He worked at/part owned a company whose sole purpose seems to be to provide investigations and expert witnesses.

Igmum · 06/08/2025 12:10

borntobequiet · 04/08/2025 13:47

I am the very model of a woman biological
It’s not a notion any way that can be paradoxical
From phenotype to chromosomes it’s really very logical
And as to sex I really am a female categorical

(cont)

Edited

😂😂😂 Mumsnet please give us the laugh button back

borntobequiet · 06/08/2025 12:16

Lins77 · 06/08/2025 09:22

I was a bit shocked at the implication that Jim Borwick was being paid to say whatever the claimant wanted.

Surely expert witnesses are usually paid? It's not an unusual thing. JB was hired for his expertise in the job at hand. Very unfair to impugn his integrity and professionalism.

Lady Russell will have seen him as an inferior person, merely a technician and without integrity, which she, of course, has in bucketloads. Not.

NotNatacha · 06/08/2025 12:18

There's a very interesting article in The Courier today. It's definitely been worth my £1 for 3 months subscription, which fortunately will also cover the submissions at the start of September.

The article is headed "How NHS Fife reacted as Sandie Peggie and Beth Upton row went public"

The health board had urged the Kirkcaldy nurse to stay quiet about her suspension while she was being investigated.
But emails show how worried NHS Fife staff reacted when it became clear Ms Peggie’s story was about to hit national headlines.

It goes on to say that Sandie Peggie did not initially go public, but she went to her MP, Neale Hanvey, who urged her to do so.

Emails from health board staff show they were particularly concerned about a press release from Mr Hanvey in which he referred to a "trans identifying male" and the effect this would have on Dr Upton.

The head of nursing wrote (whose primary responsibility, I assume, is towards nurses not towards doctors) that she wondered if someone would let Dr Upton know that this was happening. "“The terminology is completely wrong and she should not be referred to as a ‘trans identifying male’".
“I worry this may cause additional upset."

Further down the article it quotes Mr Hanvey as saying
While they tried to limit the support Sandie could access under the cloak of confidentiality, there seems to have been no boundaries set for senior staff discussing tactics.

My conclusion from that article may be that, when the situation was first made public, the director of nursing's main concern is not the publicity this brings to NHS Fife but that Dr Upton may be upset by an article which does not name him but does refer to a trans identifying male.

“There was a slight escalation recently with a local MP candidate who is supporting the other party making a press release which made it into a few news outlets,” the Victoria Hospital doctor wrote.
“It was largely nonsense and didn’t have anything particularly identifying in it.”

Lins77 · 06/08/2025 12:38

Mmmnotsure · 06/08/2025 11:16

Yes, and to particular audiences too, I suspect. Her piece at the end to SP about how you would love your child if they were trans, struck me as possibly being...let's say a very personal message.

From Tribunal Tweets Substack:
JR You became less upset as time went on. Because your love was more important
SP Y
JR Gay people okay because expressing their selves
SP yes
...
JR What if you are wrong. T person not pretending but being natural selves
SP T person still a man and shouldn't be in F CR
JR If someone feels born into wrong body. Natural
SP Y. but still men re CR
JR Don't they deserve love as well You would love a child who came out as t
SP Y

It's unfair and irrelevant. It's nothing to do with loving a child or anyone else. It's nothing to do with deserving love. You don't have to love or not love Dr Upton to think he shouldn't be in the female changing room.

guinnessguzzler · 06/08/2025 12:38

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2025 11:53

Yep.

That's hilarious.

So who DID put out the statement that Friday if it wasn't the Spokeswoman for Fife. Surely that's her job.

Or is this another example of one department not knowing its arse from it's elbow and other departments acting unilaterally with no clear chain of command?

Hmm.

Come on now, the comms department can't possibly be expected to know their arse from their elbow, they're not qualified doctors!

CarefulN0w · 06/08/2025 12:43

Emails from health board staff show they were particularly concerned about a press release from Mr Hanvey in which he referred to a "trans identifying male" and the effect this would have on Dr Upton.
The head of nursing wrote (whose primary responsibility, I assume, is towards nurses not towards doctors) that she wondered if someone would let Dr Upton know that this was happening. "“The terminology is completely wrong and she should not be referred to as a ‘trans identifying male’".
“I worry this may cause additional upset."

FFS. The board, and especially the Head of Nursing, should be concerned about the potential upset to vulnerable patients. Not pwecious men.

InjuryMyArse · 06/08/2025 12:51

Lins77 · 06/08/2025 09:22

I was a bit shocked at the implication that Jim Borwick was being paid to say whatever the claimant wanted.

Surely expert witnesses are usually paid? It's not an unusual thing. JB was hired for his expertise in the job at hand. Very unfair to impugn his integrity and professionalism.

In the power of hindsight, I wish Jim had replied " No, I am paid to give my professional opinion . It is you (JR) that is paid to say any old shite the client wants"

viques · 06/08/2025 13:07

CarefulN0w · 06/08/2025 12:43

Emails from health board staff show they were particularly concerned about a press release from Mr Hanvey in which he referred to a "trans identifying male" and the effect this would have on Dr Upton.
The head of nursing wrote (whose primary responsibility, I assume, is towards nurses not towards doctors) that she wondered if someone would let Dr Upton know that this was happening. "“The terminology is completely wrong and she should not be referred to as a ‘trans identifying male’".
“I worry this may cause additional upset."

FFS. The board, and especially the Head of Nursing, should be concerned about the potential upset to vulnerable patients. Not pwecious men.

But since the possibility is that the TIM being referred to is the TIM we now know as DU then the term is wholly appropriate. DU has not got a GRC therefore is legally a male person who identifies as being trans. So a TIM.

booksnbaking · 06/08/2025 13:11

IDareSay · 04/08/2025 12:07

The invisible Jamie Doyle

Is he any relation to The Unbreakable Sandie Peggie Kimmy Schmidt?

BezMills · 06/08/2025 13:25

WearyAuldWumman · 06/08/2025 11:18

Whereas, when this particular Fifer read some of the "evidence" coming from Upton NHS Fife, I recalled a response that I learned at my mother's knee. My mother would have been 100 this year, so it's rather an old expression.

Please bear in my mind that my mother was particularly mild-mannered and that this response is only to be used when faced with someone who is being completely and utterly ridiculous and nothing else is getting through.

cough

Would have been an appropriate response to the "biological woman" answer.

cough

"Awa'n'shiteabrick'n'printyernameoanit!"

I think we're at cross purposes. Thon Speccie Loddie, as I'm referring go him, is Jim Borthwick the expert witness. Maybe you thought I meant Dr Upton?

ToBethornottoBeththatistheUpton · 06/08/2025 13:36

I’ve just been deleting threads from my watching list and realised I didn’t read the whole of thread 24 back in April. I’ve had to add extra Tunnocks to my shop in anticipation.

ContemporaneouslyNebulousNotes · 06/08/2025 13:38

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 06/08/2025 10:32

Agree 100%.

I am a lefty atheist. But I don’t care if you disagree with me on every other issue, if you are a woman, I will fight for your right to have single sex provisions.

Does anyone have the Dworkin quote? The one about women’s rights being for all women, even those you hate? Even those who hate you?

"Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy in behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with anymore. It doesn't matter who the individual women are."
Andrea Dworkin

WearyAuldWumman · 06/08/2025 14:15

BezMills · 06/08/2025 13:25

I think we're at cross purposes. Thon Speccie Loddie, as I'm referring go him, is Jim Borthwick the expert witness. Maybe you thought I meant Dr Upton?

No, no. I got that. I knew which loddie was being maligned.

I was giving this as a possible Fifer pithy response to Upton's previous nonsense. My apologies for my lack of clarity.

SqueakyDinosaur · 06/08/2025 14:27

WearyAuldWumman · 06/08/2025 14:15

No, no. I got that. I knew which loddie was being maligned.

I was giving this as a possible Fifer pithy response to Upton's previous nonsense. My apologies for my lack of clarity.

I've always loved the Geordie version - "hadaway and shite"....

Lins77 · 06/08/2025 14:39

booksnbaking · 06/08/2025 13:11

Is he any relation to The Unbreakable Sandie Peggie Kimmy Schmidt?

Or The Unsinkable Sandie Peggie Molly Brown, perhaps.

LoudlyProudlyHorrid · 06/08/2025 14:41

UpDo · 06/08/2025 10:30

Mmm, I think the question of Borwick had to be for the media and internet gallery rather than anything else. JR will know fine well how the invoicing works.

Was he asked who paid him or IF he had been paid? The implication of the latter being that he has his own axe to grind in being there. That is how I understood it.

Lins77 · 06/08/2025 14:46

LoudlyProudlyHorrid · 06/08/2025 14:41

Was he asked who paid him or IF he had been paid? The implication of the latter being that he has his own axe to grind in being there. That is how I understood it.

As opposed to doing it out of the kindness of their hearts like lawyers always do.

Mmmnotsure · 06/08/2025 14:51

LoudlyProudlyHorrid · 06/08/2025 14:41

Was he asked who paid him or IF he had been paid? The implication of the latter being that he has his own axe to grind in being there. That is how I understood it.

Jim Borwick was asked both questions by Jane Russell:

From Tribunal Tweets:

JR - you were paid for report, not pro bono
JB - yes, i will be paid as you wil
JR - so yes
JB - i will be paid yes
JR - who will you invoice
JB - instructor
JR - skilled witness?
JB - yes
JR - duty to be impartial
JB - yes

Watching it, she was offensive in implying both that he was not impartial in his expert witness and that he and the legal team instructing him had been guilty of professional misconduct. He was pretty unimpressed by this.

PrinceRegentLady · 06/08/2025 15:04

The lines of questioning have been so astonishing- completely irrelevant, illogical & - with their suggestion that women need to be ‘perfect victims’ in order to benefit from basic rights- alarming.

I have sons & I love them. That doesn’t mean I encourage them to use ladies’ changing rooms. Why on earth would it? Just because you love a son does not mean you encourage him to be an entitled bullying misogynist who invades women’s privacy.

We should all be frightened by the suggestion that our rights are lent to us at men’s discretion, & can be removed if we don’t meet the criteria that men set for us. Women’s rights - in fact the rights of any group!- are not earnt by good behaviour. The idea that they are is one we see all too often play out in the most unpleasant contexts- racism, religious bigotry, hostility to minorities, & violence. A really nasty slippery slope exposed.

SternlyMatthews · 06/08/2025 19:26

mrshoho · 06/08/2025 08:54

Many thanks for sharing The Times article. How does it work with written evidence produced for the tribunal? The article says these notes are part of previously unpublished evidence. Does the press have access to all the documents and they have been gradually going through it all or would someone else have released them to the press?

The bundles may still be available for inspection, & certainly journalists from the Times, the Herald & the Courier, starting with Andrew Learmouth of the Herald, have been mining them for copy.

mrshoho · 06/08/2025 20:59

Thanks for this. I wondered about the Times article that was shared here this morning. The headline 'Trans doctor Beth Upton lamented lack of guidelines on changing rooms.' It's nicely putting the boot in to NHSFife but I hope this won't be the excuse to clear Upton of harassment.

Conxis · 06/08/2025 21:55

mrshoho · 06/08/2025 20:59

Thanks for this. I wondered about the Times article that was shared here this morning. The headline 'Trans doctor Beth Upton lamented lack of guidelines on changing rooms.' It's nicely putting the boot in to NHSFife but I hope this won't be the excuse to clear Upton of harassment.

IIRC on the last day NC said they were expecting there to be appeals in this case. I wonder if Sandie will appeal if DU is let off the hook on the harassment charge? And if DU will appeal if he is found to have harassed her?
Surely Fife wouldn’t appeal but who knows!!

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