NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

Foran was helpful yesterday on perspective into Currer’s evidence. The binary perspective of sex and the fact she believes and knows Upton was a biological male was clear and will be pulled out in submissions.

Skeleton submissions have been given to court.

No word yet on whether there is public access viewing for that in early September- anyone have any insight?

On appeals - Foran said he things Fife wouldn’t appeal it due to bad publicity. Sandie will appeal as her case is submitted, there won’t be any re-do of the case so it’s a point of law / legal submissions so worth pressing on.

As Upton is a respondent in his own right and he personally has lots to lose - he can appeal. He may get backing from the trans lobby.

Plenty to think about.

Support animals are not the same as guide dogs or hearing dogs. They are just animals people claim give them support. Some may be trained but many not at all.

@Tangfastic71 now, we will absolutely have bearded trans men with cocks in women’s spaces

No we won't. We may have bearded transmen with mutilated arms, and chunks on inert flesh stitched onto their pubic areas, but the chunks will never be cocks.

I hope word of that is getting out to transmen, because this whole fad is doing huge damage to unwell women, and both hormonal scrambling and cosmetic surgery in the genitourinary area have terrible long-term health implications.

I do hope DU attempts to appeal the sexual harassment if that is found against him. His team would have little chance of overturning the SC logic (which will apply even if JR tries to claim the specifics won’t) and we’ll get a binding EAT at The Good Law Project’s expense. Good times

Just a thought; I wonder if that Ian MacPhail got any support from his Union. It would be beyond belief considering that SP was left high and dry for not wanting men in a female only changing room. Certainly if a Union was ok supporting a male member who was up for possession, making and distributing depraved sexual assaults on young boys (including babies).

Maybe they didn’t. But it shows how little confidence these organisations now inspire if I think there could even be a possibility they might have showed up for the male perv.

Edited to correct name spelling.

Like Foran, I would be surprised if Fife appeal should they lose. If they do, I suspect it will be because ScotGov have pushed them to do so. However, I doubt the likes of KS will reflect on how they contributed to this mess. They will plough on, confident that they are right and everyone else is wrong, until someone stops them.

I agree Upton has a lot to lose so may appeal, but he will have to find funding from somewhere if Fife stop picking up his bills.

SP must appeal if she loses, and I'm sure her backer will provide the funding necessary. She is fighting for all women. If a man is allowed to say this, I stand with Sandie, and I will continue to do so regardless of any views she holds that I may find offensive. Failure is not an option.

It's GOOD to have Tangfastic here because she repeats things which are untrue and need to be challenged - not for Tangfastic's sake, 'who believes and always will believe that transwomen are women.' but for others who are not brainwashed into believing such a nonsense.

This thing about how 'trans rights have been removed.' 'Trans rights are human rights'. Not a single person here would argue that Trans rights aren't human rights! But they still have just the same human rights as they always had, as every human has. It is a deliberately insidious and dangerous tactic to pretend otherwise, and it's been adopted enthusiastically by TRAs because it's so dramatic and sounds so cruel:

"Trans people have been banned from Sport!" - no. No, you haven't. You can play as much sport as you like, in your own sex class, or in open classes.

"We've been banned from toilets! we can't have a pee now so we are virtually housebound!; repeated ad infinitum until others pick it up and parrot it, believing it true. No, you haven't been banned from toilets. You use the ones for your own sex from now on or gender-neutral ones.

So no, Tang, trans people haven't 'lost rights'. It was women who had temporarily lost theirs, while the movement barrelled on and insisted men could actually be women and had every right to enter spaces rightfully designated for women only. This was never a right as the SC has clarified.

They have lost nothing but what we're hearing is their FURY that they're now being thwarted. WANTING to use women's facilities or be one of the girls in women's sport is such a desperate, validating pleasure for them that they're tantrumming viciously about it now they can't do that any more.

MacPhail is disturbing, but at the moment still possibly a red herring. A stinky herring that reflects badly on NHSF, but possible nothing to do with this case.

To me the HUGE dropped brick that made it clear that Dr Beth Upton's motivation for being in the women's changing room was sexual was the revelation that he wears a bra (and that women using the CR got to see it). Any possibility that he might just be confused or naive or harmless vanished at that stage. Men fearing flowery frocks, okay, maybe even good if they have a sense of style. Fetishised underwear, unequivocally bad.

Am I right that that information came from one of his supporters?

Erm... Anyone know why Michael Foran has disappeared from X? 🧐

Of course men should stand with Sandie. We need to stand together for coming generations of children so they aren’t such in by this false ideology.

Thanks for all your contributions to the threads. If Scotgov push Fife I’d be surprised. I’d feel and FoI coming on. ☺️

and will always consider trans women as women.

I cannot take seriously anything someone says who says this trite nonsense particularly when they then contradict that purported belief as you do Tangfastic71 by sayig ah but not in sport or in some other area.

Making exceptions as to when TW are W and when not would have you deemed as transphobic and torn to shreds in a TRA space.

TW are not women by any metric, including the law, and you know this, you don't truly believe TW are W otherwise you would not state there are times when they are not.

I do wonder why people like you are so determined that women should toilet and undress in the presence of men who claim to be women - what are you getting out of it?

Something happened last night, but I didn't see it. A lot of GC people were slagging him off, but I don't know why. I am sure someone on here knows.

I think it was one of the nurses testifying on behalf of Fife.

I don’t take any of these people particularly seriously, I assume they must have some personal reason for their absurd stance.

Nobody cares if some TRA wants to tie himself in knots to pretend that TWAW. We're not TRAs, we are not looking for wrongthink. If he wants to pretend that he's a woman, or another man is a woman, that's up to him. If you want me to pretend that he's a woman, that's up to me. And if you want me to remove my clothes to prove it, you can go and.

To add to this comment.

Let's be clear, we do welcome opposing views.

Well thought out and reasoned views.

If you are going to come along and read from the script of bollocks and say things like "you are homophobic and it's just like being gay" or "if you knew any transpeople" or the particularly dipshit "it doesn't harm anyone else" and "well I've never had a problem so I don't understand why anyone else should" well frankly you need pulling up and telling.

We aren't prepared to put up with this level of lame conversation. We are so far beyond that and are done with the sealioning. Catch up and actually bother to listen to where the current conversation is.

It has been demonstrated that there ARE issues with safeguarding on many levels and the ideology IS hurting multiple groups. It is BEYOND contention on these points now, no matter how many people want to pretend it is. Labouring the point, doesn't change where we are in terms of identifying problems.

The conversation is now at "ok, how do we handle this in a fair way that recognises these issues and causes the least amount of conflict and upset".

Get with it. Have that conversation.

All this bollocks of 'transrights are human rights'. Yeah we know. We aren't arguing that. We also know how rights work and how there are exemptions and workarounds needs for particular situations for various legitimate reasons. And human rights apply to every other group including women. Including 'bad women'

It's terrible that we have got to a place where not only are their conversations about 'deserving and undeserving poor' about money, but we are now also have conversations about 'deserving and undeserving women' about moral issues. This is fundamentally regressive and really is far right shit even if it's not recognised as such.

It's about time, 'the other side' got their heads out their arse or looked up from a screen with short mantras and bothered to read the whole of these laws and bothered to understand them for themselves. Instead they listen to grifters, influencers and charlatans rather than using the brain cells of their own that they were given.

Basically wakey wakey, this is 2025 not 2018 or 2022. As the saying went 'Educate yourselves'. (Irony intended).

It's not the labour of women to do this for you. It's not like women were 'helped' to educate themselves when told to before is it? We had to get up off our arses and do it ourselves. So we did.

Oh, wow,@RedToothBrush

That’s so much better than me calling Tang a ‘pest’ last night! 😉

Sorry if this has been said by Michael Forans twitter no longer exists? Tried to refresh his X page but it says it no longer exists (michaelpforan), can’t find another account for him.

Yes - from TT morning of 28th July:
FW - SP in uniform, I don't recall what everyone else was wearing, DU I don't recall but when I've seen her changing before always lower half covered and wearing a bra at least
JR - how to people get changed
FW - come in and get on with business of changing
JR - when you left

Completely agree about the bra. I mean I had no sympathy whatsoever with him being in the room, but that admission directed a huge spotlight right at his fetish. Yes, one of his useful idiots gave the information.

https://x.com/DearRebelAda/status/1947053722246254901

Probably been mentioned but I had no idea Jane Russell KC is reported to have a trans-identifying daughter. She's married to LibDem hereditary peer John Russell (7th Earl Russell) who joined public protests against the Supreme Court Ruling.

I would have bet my house on that, @frazzled1

Yes Gail.

Expressing a view that someone will 'always consider' transwomen as women and then saying 'except for' is a direct contradiction. It is an indication that the person is fully aware that male people remain male people and do not become female people. So it then becomes a language exercise and one of exceptions. ie: 'except for sports', 'except for prisons' as examples.

To make 'transwomen are women' work requires language to be completely remodelled to suit someone's individual philosophical belief when that belief has no grounding in material reality. Words such as women, girl, and even 'rights' become meaningless because that group of people attempt to force direct contradictions into the definitions of words. All of a sudden words mean the very opposite of the original and established meaning.

"what are you getting out of it?"

Yes. Who exactly benefits from enforcing society to fully support this belief system?

Oh... wait... Not fully anymore. Because sports and prisons and not forcing women and girls to continue to be abused by their abuser through forcing compliance in language, and .... The list of exceptions grows longer and longer each month.

Don’t they fucking all. Wonder what happens when hers and Jolyons and whoever else’s grow out of it? Mum, dad, your grift is over sorry x

Fiona Wishart - a surprisingly useful witness. Described Upton's modesty, shyness even, that he always had his lower half covered and she only ever saw his bra. Also described the official changing room as a 'dank basement' never used. And described SP as being further away from the door.