NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

Thanks for the input @Tangfastic71 but on balance I think I preferred the honesty of “Not all men”

You were accused of saying ‘it’s never happened to me, or anyone I know, therefore it hasn’t happened to anyone’"

At 15:45, today, you wrote these words:
I would say I’ve never met a woman, trans or otherwise who has had a negative experience with trans women.

The clear implication is that your experience trumps anyone else's.

I called those women who testified handmaidens, presumably you weren’t one of them, but I find your use of the word ‘us’ in that context illuminating.

I must admit to being confused, because you tell me there are hundreds of thousands of trans identifying men, but then someone else will use the ‘but they are such a small marginalised minority, why can’t you just give them what they want?’ Some consensus would be useful.
If indeed you do work in a court setting fighting for women, you would know that the figure you have stated is completely false.

You would also know that 2/3 women a week are murdered in this country, please do show me the figures for how many trans identifying men are murdered every week, because again, you are completely incorrect that those men are more at risk than women from violence.

It isn’t bullying to state facts, it isn’t bullying to suggest you show a lack of empathy when it is implicit in your posts.

One point on which you are correct is that I know nothing about you, as you don’t about me, so I have to take it on trust that you do in fact work within the justice system for women. Or not.

It really is a despicable form of gaslighting.

I did manage to get someone who wanted to consent for all women to understand this by saying I consented to certain sex acts with my husband...did that mean she had to do those with him too?

You forget the definition of ‘attacked’ in the trans world includes elderly women with dementia calling a male doctor ‘son’.

That seems to cover most if it! What's left? Up The Lionesses? 😁

And that's the superiority complex right there

Yes, or the “trans widow” partner of one of these men, challenging him about why he’s emptied the joint account to spend it all on unconvincing prosthetics and crap wigs.

Transwomen are just as much a threat, if not more, than other men. And that threat escalates substantially if they are given access to supposedly women-only places.

It always amazes me that we are expected to believe that men who persistently ignore women’s boundaries and insist on invading our spaces are ‘safer’ than other men who respect those boundaries and spaces.

2. Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3. Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
5. Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
8. Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
10. The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.
14. Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.

I know right

Did Lindsey put those messages to the health Board herself? IE, at some point did she think they helped achieve what she wanted to achieve?!

We know Sandie provided the rest of the Benidorm chat but it's crazy to think Lindsey handed that over willingly! 😂

Where are they in general? Aren’t they a tiny, marginalised minority? I do wish they’d make up their minds!

"It always amazes me that we are expected to believe that men who persistently ignore women’s boundaries and insist on invading our spaces are ‘safer’ than other men who respect those boundaries and spaces."

Indeed.

I thought that too :)

My youngest used to call them "lots and lots".

Are lots and lots of trans identifying men being attacked? If so not been reported on much. Hmmmm

That's how I eat my fake Weetabix! 😋

I have to share the banana with the bloody dog though!

I meant to quote you and reply last night.

I wanted to say I'm really sorry you've been on the receiving end of racism, that's so awful and it just shouldn't happen

I can understand how you could've found some of the discussion around this upsetting, there's probably nothing I can say to help you feel better because the reality is that there are pockets of the world where using those terms are still common, and there's just no getting away from the fact that that is upsetting and offensive. I find it upsetting and offensive too, there's no minimising of it from me.
I wanted to reassure you, at least a little if possible, that although it can still be common in some areas, it's not ubiquitous. A lot of people (I'd like to think the majority, but I can't back that up with anything other than a fervent wish that it be true) would never dream of using such offensive terms, we know they are racist words which are often used to cause harm.

But if I may plonk my happy thought for the day here, I'm sure a lot of you already know about Ron Stallworth, and probably are more familiar with the story than I am!

Ron Stallworth was a black police officer in America in the 70's. He infiltrated the Klu Klux Klan which is amazing! As I understand it, later, he spent time talking to these extreme racists and actually managed to talk some of them out of being racist!
He has a book, and a there was a film based around the whole infiltration operation, it was directed by Spike Lee, produced by Jordan Peel, and stars John David Washington. It's called "BlacKKKlansman".
Ron Stallworth - Wikipedia

To you and anyone else in these threads who has had racism directed at you, I just want to say most of us aren't racist pricks, and I'm really sorry you've had to deal with racism

Yep. I imagine Lindsey's rethinking her life choices right now.

We may not share the same sense of urgency about this particular issue, but that doesn’t mean I lack empathy for other women. I just don’t believe rolling back trans women’s rights makes anyone safer - and I’m happier focusing on the systemic misogyny that harms all women.

@Tangfastic71

The Supreme Court judgment has made it crystal clear that trans-identified men are biologically male and therefore, under the Equality Act 2010, have never had the right to use female spaces or services or participate in the female category in sport. The fact that Stonewall has given employers the wrong information for years, interpreting the law as they wish it were rather than the law as it is, is irrelevant. There is no longer any excuse.

Incidentally, misogyny is very much predicated on the sex of women, not how they choose to dress and present themselves, so cannot apply to trans-identified men, however feminine.

Wow reading those text messages it just reads v v much that not only is Lindsay (Lindsey?) jealous of Sandie and the attention she was getting from this (ie all the support from people) that she knows deep down that NHS Fife have fucked up and that even if Sandie never works at NHS Fife or indeed any hospital again, she will be compensated. I would be very surprised if she's not and it reads like Lindsey was teeing those messages up to be shared because she could tell the way things were going and decided she wanted to burn the witch. We will never know if there's been other personal stuff that's happened between them both but well...if you have friends like that who needs enemies eh?!

And likely wouldn’t feel safe telling someone who clearly would side with man.

The heart of the matter here.

Yip you'd think thats an understatement.

I really can't believe she willingly submitted bits from that chat and not expect Sandies team to have already gone through it.

But nor can I believe JR let her without asking, did you reply to it?

That along with the question about who's paying for Sandies team makes me wonder was JR feeling completely out classed?

I think JR has shown how disposable these witnesses are. Her priority is NHS Fife and Upton. It's been eye-opening!