NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

Speaking of breakfasts...

Lovely photo of Naomi from Iain Masterton who has been at the tribunal most days taking wonderful photos.

I do not know her breakfast preferences but this looks a bit seedy

ETA: the mug is apparently the Cunningham tartan

https://x.com/LoudBonnet/status/1950531529517445458

But not including factors that were unknown before the tribunal itself began, surely? That would be moving the goalposts with a vengeance.

They had their abusive, unhinged rant at the disobedient women on MN deleted a week or so ago. So I wouldn’t concern yourself too much at the loss of a good faith conversation.

Oh it's THAT poster

Check out the 'thread of threads' by Vulvamort, aka HairyLeggdHarpy on X

https://x.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1177699186361458688

Yep

The usual speaking on riddles and a reminder of how we should all be thoroughly ashamed of ourselves.

No, but some could and did. ‘It’s not all men’ is a straw man argument. Some trans identifying men have attacked women and children in changing rooms, but I expect you don’t know any of them.

Yes, if JR had evidence that SP had written something like that or that she had not objected to Pete the Plumber... But she hasn't got that evidence and that's why I am struggling to understand why this line of argument is not a non-starter.

Even if it made it worse for SP that DrU was claiming to be a woman, it would not be any less of a genuine complaint. Even if she was actually transphobic (scant evidence of that), it doesn't change the fact that she had a reasonable expectation that the women's cr would be women-only. The objection is still based on the fact that Upton is a man.

And even if JR claims that SP had an animus against Upton before the actual cr encounters, it would be because she knew he was using the female cr. Mind you, I suppose that's why JR is trying to claim that SP pretended to be bleeding and engineered a confrontation. Good luck with that, is all I can say.

Edited for typos and clarity.

No. Thank. You.

It is time women come first.

I think that longer question was JKR's snarky paraphrase on X, but it did sum things up very well!

I wondered at first if JR was pushing it with her questions because she was angered by the situation when she objected late to NC's question to Peter Donaldson, Info Security, and the J told her it was too late as PD had already answered. It seemed as though JR was hoping, on same principle, to make SP slip up and reveal her funder.

But isn't there a point when it becomes unreasonable for counsel to persist in asking for privileged information? She asked the Phone Expert who was paying him; she asked SP twice I think, who is funding the case, and she also asked if SP instructed NC to compare DU to torturer in 1984?

JR seems so enraged that SP has secured financial privilege to put up a decent fight, that JR feels entitled to trick Sandie into rescinding some of the lawyer-client privilege during cross?

My elderly auntie (UK) says she had some shoe polish in the 1960s, the name of which was 'N... brown'!

😱 I know!

In contrast, my teenage ds nearly fainted when he recently heard the word in full in some old hip hop.

I agree, attitudes do change over time, thankfully.

🥂 to evolution

Joining these threads recently was my first time on Mumsnet. I have learnt so much on so many other things eg non-Newtonian, Fife dialect (ken, ken, the duplication making perfect sense after a while), the amazing world of instant images of files and flies on walls drinking irn bru, and so much good humour. I don't want to comment on the more recent conversations but it was being here which pointed me to other sites to try and understand more. And as far as I can see the really vitriolic threatening poisonous stuff is not on here. Many thanks to the person who bumped up the pickled courgette recipe and for the knitters, what is the stitch in NCs jumper. Seed? Looking forward to the submissions in September. And to Darlington.

I've known different Trans-people for over 30 years of my life. Some are racist, some right wing, some support Trump. They are just like everyone else in that way. Some are supportive of women and some hostile and jealous in my experience.

We can't really pigeon-hole groups of people into all being "nice" just because they share something in common.

I should have been filling in my bingo card -

‘I don’t know anyone to whom this has happened so it doesn’t happen’

’It used to be legal for men to rape their wives, but not all men did’

’Men don’t red to put on a dress and enter the toilets to fulfil their nefarious purposes’

’I choose to focus my feminist efforts on the millions of actual violent men. Not the 79 trans women in prison for sexual crimes’

I have news for you, those 79 people to whom you refer are men, the same as any other man, but I’m guessing as you don’t know those 79, or possibly more victims, their trauma doesn’t concern you. VAWG is a truly terrible thing, and trans identifying men don’t get a free pass because some people buy into their delusion that they are women.

I don’t understand how you, and some of those handmaidens who testified, get to the place where you show such a blatant lack of empathy for women who understand that the material reality of sex matters, to all women, not just to those you deem worthy. It’s some denial you’re showing.

Its a shame there's no debate as certain rules exist and we all have to follow them or debate/vote for change. The poster Tangy something doesn't say why a change in rules is needed.
I wouldn't jump to assuming a risk with physical attacks from Upton, although VAGW is mainly by males, but it opens the door to all males and I'd have an issue with his rule breaking.
The CR was not unisex. Upton is male and, however he feels, his body belongs in the male facilities. Regardless of why Sandie brings the case and even her racist words, Upton knew where the male facilities were and no male (or female or Fife) stopped him using them so he had his male rights in intact.
As the supreme court recognises biological sex, the court should agree he was wrong.

She has a lovely "Ive just been for a swim in the sea" glow in that photo.

🤣- where did I say that?! There’s a lot of people misreading my posts. You might imagine in your head that I implied it but that’s simply not the case.

To answer my own question on where the fanny comment was made by Lindsey, Jo Phoenix has transcribed the chat. https://x.com/JoPhoenix1/status/1950571947940790644

Is between Lindesy and anon.

Anyone got a spare interruptaron pic?

Gxxx 🤔now let me think 🤣

I disagree. There have been well-publicised controversies in the past where medics and nurses have been vilified in local and/or national press and media and have continued to work in public-facing roles.

I am not going to start listing them and if readers cannot bring any examples to mind it only goes to prove the point.

Today's News is tomorrow's chip wrappers.

I really struggle to understand the pov of a woman, looking at this situation, and not having empathy for Peggy wanting her own space to change, away from men.

What is going on here?

Is it that they're incapable of looking at a wider situation and understanding that everyone's feelings matter? They can't focus beyond who they see is the 'main character'?

Do they just think that women's requirements aren't as important as men's? That Sandi has no right to feel vulnerable/need space?

Is it that they are so caught up with protecting a sacred caste that they don't think anyone else matters? That everyone else should put their needs aside for the sacred cast too?

Theu just don't understand that their reaction is not other women's reaction?

I'd love @Tangfastic71 to respond to this

Whilst we wait

Calling us handmaidens is rude. I’ve fought for decades for women…in an actual court…not behind a screen…you know nothing about me.
i didn’t once say I don’t care about the people who have been abused or raped by those 79 trans women. It’s not a black and white issue. I can also care about the 100s of thousand of trans women who are abused and attacked. I can care more about issues that directly affect more women. I can choose to focus my efforts where they are most beneficial.
Toilet use isnt that place.
I think you can probably all see that you just bully people away when there’s a really good opportunity to learn from each other.
It descends into attack.
It’s clear that the echo chamber is what you prefer but I suspect from the amount of likes my posts have, some of you at least are uncomfortable with SP, and uncomfortable with the way some of you behave from behind your screens