NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

I'm glad JR didn't utter those exact words (which caused me to gasp in horror), but she wasn't that far off. And, frankly, if it were Scottish taxpayer funding me I'd probably not be playing the 'who's paying for whom' game at all. She seemed to object to the IT expert witness being paid, too.

Yes definitely and I thought Emma from SM dealt with that line of questioning very well. IIRC JR even came out with the trope that no one would have surgery just to use women’s spaces. I’m sure she isn’t that ignorant about something she purports to be an expert on so I assume she was being disingenuous.

Yes, it was hilarious when he pointed out that she was being paid too.

Oh yes, JR making it clear Sandie was overstepping her place in society by taking on an ET against the NHS and the good Dr. I have more respect now for Sandie who pressed ahead knowing how dirty the so called respectable side would fight. Thanks too go to the financial backer without whom this tribunal would never have been possible.

That was a real zinger!

DONATIONS UPDATE
As the self-appointed collection-tin-rattler, here's an update on our donations.

During the tribunal last February we made donations in support of SP to the charity chosen by her family after the death of her father, i.e. the Scottish Rheumatology Society.
Inspired by that, we then made donations to Sex Matters, of which Naomi Cunningham is chair, as a gesture of appreciation of NC and all SP's legal team.
This time round, we have been making donations again to SM, for the same reason.
Donate to Sex Matters - Sex Matters

And because we all wanted to say a huge thank-you to nauticant who is not far off her half-century tribunal threads, we donated to another single-sex facilities at work case that nauti mentions at the start of all the threads:
https://sex-matters.org/case-briefings/faye-russell-caldicott-v-nhs-england/

Here are the responses I've got:

Dear Marie
Firstly, I apologise for the slow reply. Our inbox is so busy at the moment and it's impossible to keep up!

Secondly, thank you so much for your efforts and your very kind words. I will of course pass onto the team, including Naomi.

We really do appreciate your support.

With best wishes from all of us
Emma
Admin Team
Sex Matters

FayeRC · 25/07/2025 23:00
@MarieDeGournay @Nauticant oooh thank you! I was wondering where the new flow to the crowdfunder was coming from but first thought it was from X as I do more campaigning there. I've just looked at the comments and most are from MN now. Just wanted to say a huge thank you.
Page 14 | Employment Tribunal Case to Protect Single-Sex Facilities at Work | Mumsnet

You can subscribe to Tribunal Tweets at https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/

I don't condone racism or derogatory comments about trans people or anyone else. I work (voluntary obvs) in a Foodbank and know some of the people there have questionable opinions about migrants but I also know that those people don't exhibit anything else other compassion when people come through the door. My sister was a nurse and the craic is basically ... keep your opinions at home and get on with the work at hand.
Whatever SP private opinions are, the fact remains that males shouldn't be in a females space.

Does it actually matter if SP is transphobic? She might be.

However it is impossible to say when the only trans person we have records of SP interacting with is a transwoman who didn't just have misogynist thoughts (evidence: telling a court, no less, that he'd go to a female patient that had requested female care) but also acted with misogyny (evidenced: imposing his physical presence in a female changing room).

In order to know whether SP was transphobic wouldn't we have to see her interactions with a trans person who wasn't acting with misogyny towards her? Who wasn't abusing the positions of power his sex and professional status gave him?

If we're inferring from the racist jokes that SP is transphobic then BU is ableist because of his documented misogyny. That's how it works, yes? What rights does he not deserve because of it i wonder? A fair hearing?

Having now found the right place in TT, I see you are correct. However, whilst the wording is wrong, this is not a question JR would have asked someone who could clearly afford to fund themselves. I still think it is about class. And I stand by the view that a lot of the nonsense JR and Fife's witnesses have spouted this week is signalling that they belong to the tribe, whereas SP, this nasty nurse, clearly doesn't.

Well that was a bit of a dismal ending. I can only conclude that:

-I wouldn't want to hang out with either Upton or Peggie (for different reasons)
-on balance I'd prefer to work with Peggie than Upton
-I'd hate to work at NHS Fife
-I wouldn't believe an EDI Officer if they told me water is wet
-smartphones make people very very stupid
-men don't get to use women's changing rooms by growing their hair long, changing their names and wearing pretty earrings

I'm not disagreeing that it's about class - that has been obvious from day one! But it's important not to misattribute those words, that's all.

This ⬆️ it’s just another purity test isn’t it? SP is allegedly a racist and a homophobe (not according to her lesbian daughter though, but what does she know?!) so doesn’t deserve to be treated fairly and lawfully. I don’t think posters like this realise it says more about their prejudices than it does about SP.

It also makes me laugh that apparently we are unable to be concerned about more than one thing at a time.

I agree. It is also true that some men enjoy making transwomen feel uncomfortable; this is one of the reasons I am worried about my trans-identified son. I do not accept the neologism "transmisogyny" though, as it is yet another usage stolen from women by attaching "trans" to it.

Great work and what a lovely acknowledgement.

I mean I will…but I think it’s a bit pointless for both of us and the world is not black and white. I think it’s a bit disingenuous to suggest that not prioritising the changing room issue means I don’t care about women’s safety or dignity. We clearly see this differently - you don’t see trans women as women, but I do. For me, their right to safety and dignity matters just as much as anyone else’s.
Framing this as if allowing trans women into changing rooms undermines other women’s boundaries doesn’t reflect the reality I see: trans women are far more likely to be harassed or assaulted than to harm others.
We may not share the same sense of urgency about this particular issue, but that doesn’t mean I lack empathy for other women. I just don’t believe rolling back trans women’s rights makes anyone safer - and I’m happier focusing on the systemic misogyny that harms all women.
As I’ve already said. I do appreciate that other people will feel uncomfortable and why I understand and respect their right to feel strongly about it. I don’t honestly feel that Sandie’s fight comes from an honest fear for her safety. It comes from a place of transphobia. If I were to try to simplify my complex feelings in the matter, I would say I’ve never met a woman, trans or otherwise who has had a negative experience with trans women. I’ve met lots of trans women who have had hateful and terrible experiences from both men and women. I’ve met lots of women who have experienced negative and hateful things from cis men. So on balance, whilst I empathise with your views on women’s safety….my energy is spent where my lived experience shows it is most needed.
Your third question comes from a place of misunderstanding. I can’t support SP. That means I can’t cheer her on…hail her as some bastion of women’s rights. It doesn’t mean I don’t respect her rights.

That was precisely JK Rowling's point when she quote-tweeted TT showing the relevant questioning from JR "who is funding your case?"), mockingly rephrased the wording and basically said in her follow-up text that it was a clear case of class discrimination.

@nauticant Many thanks for your work on this. I have posted but using a different name.
Would someone please post the official claim that Sandie made, I want to see the exact wording that the case has. I can't find any info on ongoing cases on Courts & Trib Scotland. Not even found the title of it. Duh! TIA

I made that at the weekend. Very tasty.

The above is in reply to @prh47bridge

I picture them all having a right scrum for first, fists flying, hair pulling, name calling...

It's a podium of shame not unlike the "women's" 800m in Rio.

Framing this as if allowing trans women into changing rooms undermines other women’s boundaries doesn’t reflect the reality I see: trans women are far more likely to be harassed or assaulted than to harm others.

@Tangfastic71 But how would you see otherwise if MSM continue to report trans identifying male crimes as women's crimes?

Have you researched into it? Had a look at Reduxx for example?

I don't think anyone here is implying all TIMs are offenders. But there is absolutely zero evidence that , as a group, they pose less risk than other men.

I thought he said that it’s likely due to the fact that there will be an appeal and he’s covering the bases.

Thanks for replying.

I think it’s a bit disingenuous to suggest that not prioritising the changing room issue means I don’t care about women’s safety or dignity. We clearly see this differently - you don’t see trans women as women, but I do.
The law sees trans women as people who need to use facilities for their biological sex: the male sex. Can you answer to that, with women's safety and dignity (and privacy) in mind?

Framing this as if allowing trans women into changing rooms undermines other women’s boundaries doesn’t reflect the reality I see: trans women are far more likely to be harassed or assaulted than to harm others. Putting aside how true it is that trans women are more likely to be harassed or assaulted themselves than to harass or assault, I have to refer back to/repeat my first point: the law sees trans women as people who need to use facilities for their biological sex: the male sex. So a trans woman in a female facility IS undermining other women's boundaries.

I just don’t believe rolling back trans women’s rights makes anyone safer Which rights have been rolled back?

I’ve never met a woman, trans or otherwise who has had a negative experience with trans women. Is your position that this means such women don't exist? Or that, because this is your lived experience, this is how it should be/is safe and appropriate to be, in law, for everyone? I will say the names Katie Dolatowski and Isla Bryson here.

Lastly, I did misunderstand your final point, so mea culpa on that. We are on the same page there: I cannot and do not condone racist or homophobic jokes or comments, but I defend to the hilt SP's or any other woman's right to single-sex spaces under law.

JR totally oblivious to the fact that we taxpayers are ultimately funding this case that she has been dragging out in cahoots with Fife and Uptonogood