NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

Does anyone else feel as if NC used the last day to raise points that could be pursued further should an appeal be required? I.e. to not be accused of having sat in information or only dreamt it up later?

Whilst not strong evidence currently I imagine, if an appeal was required and this witness legitimised it, that useful information could be learnt from a deeper investigation into the handling of SP and DU's post...

I agree, any NHS employee in this day and age knows that the p word is completely unacceptable. I don't see any way in which it's relevant to tribunal though, other than to say 'she's a horrible person' in the hope that something sticks.

I don’t think most people would seek to defend those views, but some of us are maybe able to be more realistic about how many people do hold those views, how else do you explain Brexit? 17 million people voted for it, based almost entirely on immigration, illegal or otherwise. Finding those views abhorrent yourself doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
I would remove myself from any group chat that involved anything of that nature, and I have called out members of my husband’s family for exactly these views, but they still hold them, there have been racist people on the planet since time began, it isn’t right, it’s cruel and inhumane but it happens. And we have to accept that there will be people in public services who hold these views, including SP, but that doesn’t change the fact that everyone of those people deserve fairness and justice if they need it.

@prh47bridge do you have any thoughts about the panels finding or not against Upton as second respondant?

I agree. I'm sure there is alot more to the postroom disclosure.

@anyolddinosaur "A lot of us have recognised that this sort of language still exists but have also said that there is often no malicious intent or antagonism to others behind it."

I don't believe that. Why would you use the language then? Now I'm left wondering how many people I know talk about me like that behind my back.

And absolutely it puts me off being here. Although the most obvious racist abuse I've had on here is being called a coconut. Which MN did not want to take down.

That's because I had the temerity to say I understand why people are voting Reform or Trump.

Okay, I absolutely promise I am leaving this thread now. Goodbye - and don't be afraid of the giant couscous! It's good stuff! 😂

I agree with your points about the content of Stonewall training, notwithstanding that IB seemed very keen to tell the Tribunal how little she knew about the organisation. But someone with actual subject matter expertise would've been able to research the matter and understand that the training was wrong. They would know what the legislation actually said and what needed to be taken into account. IBs own evidence is that she didn't do that. The job description was for someone who didn't need to rely on Stonewall training to know what the relevant law was.

Whether an actual subject matter expert would have done anything about it in the Fife environment is another question, of course. But IB wasn't that.

I suspect that NHSF failed to report the GDPR breach to ICO within the required 72 hours of its discovery.

Two things NHS employees will need to take from this tribunal

1. Whats App groups are probably not a good idea, unless for arranging specific events and should be used with care. Once their purpose is served they should be shut down and deleted. Under no circumstances should they be used to discuss other staff or for gossip.
2. The management will go to any lengths to eliminate you, it is a multi tier organisation who will protect their own backs first and foremost.

If SP was seen as a trouble maker or problem, all this racist info would have been utilised to get rid of her legitimately years ago. The fact it has only come to light means that it was either tolerated, supported or ignored by anyone or everyone she worked with. Alternatively, she kept her personal views to herself.

I feel that if the board had developed robust trans policy when DU first joined, consulted the staff, all of them, and provided alternative CR for those who wanted SSS ( all staff) alongside an anything goes CR, this case would never have reached this stage.

But communication between the doctors who employed DU and HR was abysmal. At what point was it disclosed that DU was trans, probably the day he rocked up for induction with HR, by which time he’d been given the green light by his immediate boss to use WCR.

This shouldn’t have been a casual arrangement and I hope that all organisations take note.

A blanket ban on the use of social media and private chat groups should also be advised. As we’ve seen from this case they are not private and can be used to prove your personal views. We have a staff What’s App group but all staff are members so tittle tattle and opinions on other staff are not committed to print, remaining firmly in the realms of hearsay. You can’t stop people having an opinion but you can protect them from libellous accusations. Not everyone has a filter but they are unlikely to criticise a member of staff if they know that person is party to the comment. It also stops inappropriate humour or confidentiality issues.

I suspect that NHS boards across the land are frantically sending out directives to staff to close down What’s App and Snapchat groups as we discuss. And medical staff are scanning years of emails in case they’ve dropped a clanger in an email chain.

I remember telling my new boss, when they took over the practice from me, that you have to be whiter than white, a rather inappropriate comment since he is Indian, in reference to transparency. We laughed about it because he wasn’t familiar with the phrase. It was embarrassing since on the surface it appeared a racist comment but it is a common phrase used in reference to honesty and is from a Shakespeare poem.

Of course pre digital the shredder was your best friend. Today nothing can be confidently deleted.

Sending that email was wrong on several levels. It prejudiced the investigation and prejudged the outcome having not heard SPs version of events. It was unprofessional and will have been against NHSF policies..

I would have expected disciplinary action e.g. investigation and potentially a written warning. However, being a Senior Doctor it would more likely have been a quiet word not to do it again.

WRT GDPR, I am retired and a bit rusty but a report to ICO would not be unreasonable. Again I expect being a senior Doctor it would have been a quiet word.

This was not a need to know email. That would have been - DrU maybe slightly upset or distracted at work. Please keep an eye on them and allow them to take a time out if necessary. I have told Dr U to talk to me if they need more support.

Could they be pretending as they may be scared to get into a conversation about it? All the people I speak to are aware of it, but they are mostly retired so have more leisure time to follow news stories perhaps .

A blanket ban on the use of social media and private chat groups should also be advised.

I don't see how the NHS could do that. It would make more sense to remind staff that actions out of work and off the clock could still be used in disciplinary and regulatory matters, thus their chat groups and social media is at their own risk.

I would hate for posters to take away from this that lots of us are hearing these terms in everyday life and doing nothing.

We’re reflecting on historic use, which lingers in on in small sections of communities. The vast majority of people using the corner shop won’t be referring to it inappropriately. There may be a handful of probably very local neighbours who do. The kind of extended families who still live near each other, went to school with their neighbours, and so still have a local shorthand for very local matters.

@EmeraldRoulette I've tried to explain that - habit, resistance to change, people around you know what you mean. In the same way that people in my area still refer to a shop that has changed its name more than once by a name it had 20 years ago.

@BeLemonNow People complain often in health care. Staff might not report in a very toxic workplace but I do believe patients would. Some people turn up at a&e without good reason, do you want everyone to live in fear of ever saying no you dont actually need to be here?

edit for typo

@EmeraldRoulette, the snap judgment was not directed at you. I am sorry if you think that.

I am honest I have never personally experienced racism. I am a white women and let me assure you that is only privilege I have ever experienced.I observed during the pandemic that strangers would stare and comment at husband should he not of put his mask on quick enough for their liking. The same people would not say anything to me who did not wear a mask (due to sensory and trauma reasons).

My view point of language is from the perspective of being a disabled neurodivergent and invisible physical disability. I cannot discuss from lived experience of being a Chinese women. I married into the culture, I am not a Chinese women. I was referring more to the comments made about those with disabilities even within professional environments. The casual judgements of those who have grown up in care. They are often made in front of me as those individuals would presume that I am not a CEP or someone who has experienced significant trauma. This judgment is partly dur to me being me and I am admittedly a Hermione, I speak well and according some people therefore must be a snob and posh. Reality I hate snobbery and elitism.

I find the North of England the worst for this. The judgement that I cannot possibly be have experienced significant trauma or lived in UK levels of poverty just because of how I talk.

Have you watched Gilded Age it is introducing racism or what I believe is referred to as colourism within the Black Community. I have had discussions with Black women who have shared this still occurs today. It is an area I am still learning about and am guilty of being naive about in the past. I grew up in a white middle class wealthy environment. I never really thought about race until I moved to London. Then again I do judge by background or skin colour. I judge by behaviours.

Again I am sorry if you thought I meant you were making snap judgments. This case has been an eye opener for all women.

Just in case anybody is missing TT, they are going to be reporting from the Good Law Project’s application for a Judicial Review of the EHRC’s interim update following FWS judgment. They can’t live tweet, so they’ll just be reporting during the breaks.

I agree. NHS and other organisations need to be writing policy around private workplace chat groups.

When I was young our local shop actually called itself “Your local P Shop”, with the owners name coming first.
So it seemed to be acceptable then and at some point it became a racist slur.
Even a Pakistani doctor I worked with called the local shop the P* shop.

Advised is the emphasis. You can’t stop social groups forming but it reminds them that care is needed. I think that when this case is ruled it will become a little more public and the details of how a private chat group has destroyed a long standing friendship group it may make people consider the content of their group chats.

The job ad does not say the applicant must already be a qualified Subject Matter Expert / SME though.

It says the post holder “will be a SME”. I take from that an inference that they will give the post holder training to allow them to become a SME given the context they will operate in. Regardless of who they hired, there would still be a requirement to train that person to be specialised in “Equality & Human Rights” as it relates to NHS Fife.

I have also attached a screenshot of the official Person Spec from the job she applied to. As you can see, it’s very basic and there’s nothing to suggest she isn’t capable or lacked any of that?

I don’t particularly like this criticism of IB, it reeks of ageism/sexism. If a male the same age went for the job, he’d be praised. Instead IB is being likened to a child etc.

Two people with an axe to grind accused SP of threatening a mosque and using "it". There was no further evidence in support of those claims, and SP denied them. Who are you to judge who was telling the truth, whose memory was faulty, or who was lying? I don't recall what I saw and heard observing the tribunal well enough to comment on her use or non-use of "weirdo" to describe DU, who certainly behaved strangely in the tribunal and in tampering with his phone notes, based on the evidence I heard. I think we are all agreed that SP sharing the set of very nasty jokes in the Benidorm chat group of 7 was indefensible and is a black mark on her character.

I have done things and said things of which I am ashamed, and that I would not wish to be brought up in court. Have you?

I'm hesitant on that one. Assuming SP wins, I would expect the panel to find that Fife is primarily responsible. However, Upton stated that he knew some women were uncomfortable with him using the female changing room but he used it anyway. There is also evidence that he invented the patient safety concerns and attempted to falsify evidence to the tribunal. If I had to make a prediction, I would go for the panel finding against Upton, but I am not confident about that.

I don’t particularly like this criticism of IB, it reeks of ageism/sexism.

Oh, come on! IB was unsure what sex she was, and completely ignorant of the relevant legislation. She made a complete fool of herself on the stand, and has no-one else to blame.

I dont think you can advise a blanket ban. Its one or the other really. Using the word ban would be a bad idea. Much more sensible, as you say, to use the Benidorm group as a cautionary tale.

This stuff isn’t necessarily private, it can be screenshotted or a photo from another device taken even if you use the auto delete provisions (though people probably still should) and anyone on the planet could see your social media. The Benidorm group chat illustrates this all!

I'm sure it's already been said, but I'm still furious that the women who made the decision to allow/enable/agree to Upton using the female changing room don't even use that room to change. I wonder if they'd have reacted/responded/advised differently if it was their space and their privacy and dignity and safety being compromised. The cheek of the doctor who talked about a "flat hierarchy", only flat if you're not a nurse or HCA, I guess.