NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

@mrshoho am I right in thinking the other colleagues (inc Sandie) who didn't report the patient conf breech are equally liable?

The TRAs who plop on here frequently mention “genital inspections” whenever there’s a discussion about public loos, maybe we should have purity inspections instead?

I hope the judge sees this with the clarity that it deserves.

That NHS Fife were happy to destroy or impugn the careers of Sandie Peggy, a nurse with a hitherto flawless record. several of her nursing colleagues in the WhatsApp group and the IT expert, plus loads of their own management team and EDI professionals - all to not just make sure, but fucking nail home with a jackhammer, that any female working for the NHS does so on the condition that she strips off in front of any man who demands it.

If the judge doesn't find in favour of Sandie, he's clearly in the wrong job.

But he needs to do more than that.

Because NHS Fife has just told their entire female work force that illegal though it might be, if you don't fucking do what we tell you, you're toast, because we'll stop absolutely nothing to force you to comply.

Just to add, LN’s evidence revealed that her sons are gay and she seemed to believe that T was a natural evolution of the LGB. When SP asked for advice about how to process the idea of her daughter being gay, LN judged SP for this. LN didnt seem to be able to account for SP being able to question her feelings but ultimately accept her daughter as gay.

Other chats obtained by NC indicated that LN didnt like SP much and she wanted to let everyone/the world know what SP was like. She also expressed jealousy about SP’s possible payout and was seen speaking to the other witness at lunch when they’d been told not to.

During cross NC revealed that LN had gone along with all the racist remarks through the thread and not protested or left - herself adding a laugh emoji on something inappropriate that SP had posted. NC then asked “is this the worst thing that we will find that you’ve posted?” and unfortunately for LN - because she’d been so unreflective on her own actions - NC showed that LN had named a patient, described their condition/medical details and then criticised them making a complaint about her (LN)?! She also had voluntarily brought this private chat to the Tribunal as evidence so was happy to ignore the privacy of friends as well as patients…

After that NC asked again - is this the worst we will find… but she then paused and didnt proceed. So it seems that there’s something even worse that LN posted compared to seeming to laugh at racist comments and breach regulatory guidelines on patient confidentiality…. But we will never know what.

LN had volunteered to bring this evidence it seemed she did it to tell the world how bad SP was. As a result she came under scrutiny and revealed her actions as far worse than SP with the added dash of disloyalty. The mudslinging was bad for SP but it maybe rebounded on her much worse.

As well as possibly facing regulatory sanction, I’m wondering if she will also be ostracised at work after publicly revealing that ALL members of the Benidorm (?) Party Chat were racists?

In a desperate situation, in an A&E department, I think most people just want to be seen by a competent professional. I certainly would.
But my point wasn't really about the legal situation for the NHS, my point was that many people of all skin colours and backgrounds (and as someone in science I have encountered pretty much all ethnicities at this point, it's a very diverse environment) can at times say things that someone else can find fault with or find upsetting. I don't think you end racism (actually, I don't think racism can ever be completely ended) by punishing people who ever say anything wrong and not allowing them a way back.

I have thought for a while now that it wouldn't be practical for either Sandie or DU to work in the sort of NHS role that has public access, iyswim. Something where anyone could rock up. Quite apart from what anyone thinks of either of their conduct and the possibility of regulatory referrals. They're both too well known and controversial.

Pretty sure that would be the case in England.

This is potential justification for a compensation payout for loss of future earnings because she can’t go back to work after this. Because there’s too much chance of other allegations from staff or patients. And we’ve seen that NHSF can’t investigate anything impartially- so it’s effectively constructive dismissal?

Yes. Staff have a legal responsibility to report GDPR breach as soon as discovered.

The patient or anyone concerned can report it as a data breach I imagine. And then Fife will be under even more scrutiny.

Re your 1st paragraph - You describe yourself as “foreign albeit white”. Therefore you lack credibility to speak on behalf of others here. It’s completely possible that people who are Pakistani or Chinese etc may not feel the same way as you do. I have heard about ethnic minorities facing discrimination from medical professionals throughout my life, in the same way that women may not feel like they are taken seriously by medical professionals in an emergency situation.

Secondly, I’m not sure about the relevance of the rest of your point. Good for you, I guess? But again you fail to understand that it isn’t the ethnic minorities that would be “punishing” SP, it’s the NHS who don’t like her anyway.

Are there any lawyers here who could give thought to Jane Russells conduct during this ET?

I know her job is to rep her clients to the best of her ability - but her antics in court have been breath stopping.

I wonder if anyone will call for her to be professionsl body to take a closer look?

If Fife did want to try and get rid of Sandie on the basis of the racist comments, I wonder how long it would take? Between the verdict here, potential appeals, NMC referrals and internal investigations it could drag on til she's approaching early pension age anyway. A less captured organisation might just pay her to sod off after the ET verdict.

Sure, they may not feel the same as me that's fine, and I'm not claiming to speak on behalf of others, I'm only speaking for myself, I would prefer to see a competent professional when in A&E if they act professionally rather than wait even longer. I'm not interested in their beliefs. Even in my remote area of Scotland, there is a good chance that professional is not white a this point.

I don’t think Sandie is unpopular at work. I think one of her holiday group friends disliked something about the situation and decided to stick the boot in. She foolishly thought she could share a screenshot of one nasty joke, and say ‘Sandie’s a bigot!’, and that would be that.

Sadly for her, she’s dropped herself and all six colleagues in serious shit. Unnecessarily.

The P one is definitely used as a slur in my experience. Not so much the C one which is a bit disrespectful but not hostile. Again, in my experience.

I think most people now know the P one is unacceptable- not so much in the past but definitely now.

It's interesting how terms and their acceptability change, though. As someone pointed out earlier, "coloured" was once regarded as a politer word than "black". Few people use it now - maybe some older people who haven't caught up.

I’ve just been rereading LN’s testimony from Monday and if anyone thinks it impugns SP’s integrity rather than her own, well, I’m surprised.

My ex husband was a fireman and his watch definitely used black humour to decompress after any gruelling job. I remember being horrified as he related how they had had to break into a flat and found a long dead corpse sitting at a table with what looked like a cake in front of it. The squad stood round singing ‘happy birthday’.

Funny I'd see the C one as worse, but I'm not sure why I think that.

Which just proves your point.

And yes, things change. The reclaiming of 'queer' does my head in. I find this term grossly offensive.

Yeah why not give him an allotted time in the men's CR and the men can wait outside? After all it may have facilities he needs (urinal) and the women's CR has facilities he doesn't need (sanitary disposal bins). (Agree he's a prat).

@Firealarms

I think you are ascribing your own feelings to Sandie's colleagues by saying she is unpopular. You don't even know who her close friends were and you are ignoring the punitive culture at NHS Fife. Despite which, at least one colleague/friend was prepared to speak up - before getting cold feet at the last minute. There was also the secondhand evidence of the anonymous caller via the Sex Matters witness, claiming that others supported her views on the CR.

Secondly, sharing racist jokes on a private chat is not racism faced by patients. If she's managed to get through 30 years of service without negative rumours or complaints about her care of ethnic minority patients then that's good enough. That aspect of Sandie Peggie came as no surprise to me because I know the type. The EA2010 does not proscribe thoughts and feelings - rightly so. It makes unlawful to treat people worse on the basis of any of their PCs.
Sandie is not an outlier with regard to her behaviour in sharing the racist jokes.

Working at the hospital will be impossible in practical terms, I do agree.

ETA: tag for Firealarms

Have you got a link? I read some of it on Twitter yesterday but now can't remember which account it was on. I was really shocked that someone would stand up in court and give evidence against a long-term friend and colleague. Really horrible. Sandie must have thought all this time that Lindsay (Lindsey?) was someone she got on with, and now it turns out that Lindsay didn't like her at all.

When I was a child in a northern town in the 70s there were a lot of racist attitudes specifically towards black people (there were a lot fewer Asian people then than there are now) - lots of National Front graffiti, not so much the N word but one beginning with W which we thankfully don't seem to hear any more. I remember seeing that from an early age.

I haven't posted on any of these threads before but have read most of them and really appreciate how much they have informed me.
I know all this and much more has been said many times but this is my take in a nutshell.

Whatever SP has written/forwarded on her Whatsapp, almost everyone else comes out worse.
Her colleague LN is despicable. I agree that she's probably jealous of any prospective payout to SP.
The consultants who made a complete cockup in their support of DU and who cannot tell what sex people are. These are senior medical professionals. They should be mortified.
IB, who, to put it kindly, is naive in the extreme and devoid of the knowledge and skills her role requires.
DU, who is not fit to practise.

I wish I could think that NHS Fife will be overhauled and sorted out but given what we put up with from the Scottish government I have no expectations of that happening. They encouraged the TWAW attitudes which prevail here and in most of the public sector.

Totally agree with everything here

NHS Fife is clearly a total shitshow. Yet nothing will be done about that.